Friendship,advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

It feels a bit chilly here this morning DSL.

I think we have enough division in society without fuelling it with talk about millennials and boomers. Things were very different 40 years ago.

I was 19 and Mr. S. 27 when we were married. Two children by the time I was 23 and was a stay at home mum until youngest started full time education.

Yes, houses were cheaper but wages were lower and as far as I know subsidised childcare didn't exist. Interest rates in the 80's were ridiculous with the interest on mortgages as high as 15% at one point.

'Bank of mum and dad' was never spoken of then and we know from our experience and that of our friends that some AC are being financially supported well into their 30's and in some cases beyond.

Marriage or being in a committed relationship is happening much later for many which means that they're that much older when deciding to take their first step into the housing ladder.

More years for some spent enjoying life with little or no financial responsibility and who can blame them making the most of their youth and freedom.

I see 19 year old's today and can't believe when I was their age I was married!!

I agree that this thread seems to have gone out of kilter in the last few days Allsorts but that said, we're still here chatting away to one another and I know that we'll continue to do just that until things settle down again.

Maybe we should have this mantra for the time being 'keep calm and carry on'.

Hugs.....I think you are right. Anxiety/depression are in part underpinned by excess consumerism.

Capitalism has lifted billions out of poverty, but it has its dark side. Pollution, destruction of the environment, bonded Labour. You only have to look at the garment industry.

I went to China in 2002. I saw the sweatshops in Beijing with my own eyes. I have never forgotten.

They were shut down for the olympics, partly to allow the air to clear and partly to hide the conditions from the world, workers were cleared from the city. I doubt they were compensated.

And The gap between the haves and have nots continues to widen. Why, in gods name, do rich nations need food banks......it's a disgrace.

It's a tough world out there, always has been - that's why families are so important. And that's why estrangement is so destructive. The very pressures that go towards creating the rise in estrangement can only be overcome by families not becoming estranged, by sticking together and working together.

In unity there is strength. Previous generations knew this, they largely stuck together in order to survive.

Our EACs have, by and large have never known austerity, (most) grew up in comfortable homes with all mod cons. I fear for them, they are often financially overcommitted, led into a false sense of security by cheap lending.

I look at their lifestyles and I shudder. The huge mortgages, the big cars, the fancy holidays, exhorbitant childcare costs., endless eating out. Fine when the going is good and you can keep all the balls in the air..

What happens when one of them lose their jobs or gets sick. I know from experience exactly what happens.

I know I sound like a doomongerer but that recession us coming. If our EACS think they are suffering now, they ain't seen nothing yet.

I wonder how many will want to contact their families again, will they be able to swallow their pride and reach out.

Whiff

Ok I was born in 1958 what am I supposed to be other that a 64 year old woman.

If wealth brought health my husband won't have died. We would have raised the money somehow. But at that time there was nothing we could do to stop him dieing. But now there is a combined of 2 tablets that can extend the life of someone with grade 4 malignant melanoma don't know by how long or how much they would suffer.

Going into the garden today as it's cooler. See you all later.

You're classified as a Boomer, like me:

"a person born during the period between approximately 1945 and 1965 following the Second World War, when there was a baby boom (= a large increase in the number of babies born), also used to refer to an older person in general:"

?

Ok I was born in 1958 what am I supposed to be other that a 64 year old woman.

If wealth brought health my husband won't have died. We would have raised the money somehow. But at that time there was nothing we could do to stop him dieing. But now there is a combined of 2 tablets that can extend the life of someone with grade 4 malignant melanoma don't know by how long or how much they would suffer.

Going into the garden today as it's cooler. See you all later.

Allsorts. You are right the thread has gone off piste but I sometimes wonder if estrangement is in part finance driven. Our children, who largely in their 30s and, are part of the millennial grouping and are under enormous financial pressure.

Obviously each generation has its own stressors, 30s depression, ww2 for our parents, 70s inflation, 80s unemployment for our generation and so on,

Our 30s are probably the busiest and most stressful decade of our lives which ever generational cohort you belong to. These are the years when we are just starting out, building careers, raising children. I know I found that to be the case.

It's true, money doesn't buy happiness, but the lack of it can put an enormous strain on a marriage. Money also can't buy health, but it can buy better health care. Being sick and disabled costs money. My husbands illness nearly bankrupted us.

Whiff the terms boomer and millennial are just labels to describe when you were born. Along with Gen X and Gen Y, Gen Z.

Too much is made of it, we are all just people.

Lovely gentle rain here. The gardens are grateful.

Absolutely. My wealth (or poverty!! lol) has nothing to do with personal family relationships.

Why would it?

It also has nothing to do with how happy or not I am. Why would it?

DH and I have got what we've got through a combination of hard work, decent pensions, and some good fortune.?

Meanwhile, it does feel cooler today, thank goodness.?

"One thing to remember money does not buy health or happiness. Unfortunately some people can't or won't understand that.

So true. I think the happiest time in my life coincides with when I was the poorest.

MiaZadora81

Mandrake

As a millennial who knows a lot of millennials, it's not that we don't want houses and just want to travel and party.

It's that most can see that they'll never be able to afford houses, so might as well travel or do something we want with our lives instead of digging and scraping for something that's not going to happen.

I had lunch with my boss and coworker today, also millennials, and my boss and her husband are both professionals. They own a house but had to have help from both sets of parents for the down payment.

Now they are moving to a state closer to their family because they...a professional accountant and a lawyer....can't afford childcare for both kids and pay their mortgage and pay student loans.

My partner, a millennial, makes 6 figures and couldn't afford is house without help from his parents.

I'm not saying that all millennials want houses and a picket fence...but even the ones that do can't do it alone. My personal net worth is much higher than most people in my age range, but at most, I could only afford a 1 bdrm condo.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but by and large millennials are worse off than their parents.

The only silver lining is that we aren't Gen Z.

You are putting words in my mouth now. You make it sound like I'm saying that millenials are just wanting to party and have a good time instead of buying homes. That's not what I said at all.

I have millennials among my children. I have plenty of millennials who consider me a mother figure and come to me all the time to talk. Many of them are choosing to travel and have experiences (I didn't say party) and put off buying a house because they value that more. I have to say I actually agree with them about those priorities.

One of my millennial children has more money and material wealth than I will ever have. We had to get help to get into a house. They sure didn't.

I couldn't afford childcare. I stayed at home and got my qualifications later, part-time, as it was what I could manage. We sure didn't have a six figure income and we did it hard, but we made it work. We have struggled hard.

Quote: "The oldest millennials are 40. " Really? Well then I'm just a handful of years older than millennials.

My priorities are helping my millennials with the cost of their education so they can have as low a loan as possible. Had one of those myself, know what a burden it is. Also trying to make sure I'm not going to be a burden on my children in old age. Though I'll never be as well off as at least one of my children and one of the millennials who considers me a mother figure.

Ok gang read posts. Like Allsorts said rightly let's get back on topic.

It's ok to mention if you are selling and moving as those that are have been here a long time and talk about other things .

But when people start taking about statistics it's going to far . Boomers and millennials still no idea what the hell they are supposed to be.

There is a house and home forum start a thread on there about statistics if you want .

I don't want anyone who is going through estrangement,may be estrangement or anything to do with estrangement of any sort not reading this thread and getting help,support ,advice , understanding and friendship.

No more statistics please .

One thing to remember money does not buy health or happiness. Unfortunately some people can't or won't understand that.

To give you an example on pensions
A pension fund of £100, 000 would generate, via an average annuity, an income of £4-5k per year.
So on paper, that person has £100k wealth - what they actually have access to is about £350 a month - which is probably not inflation proofed. When you look at what the state pension is and the cost of living they are a lot less wealthy than those stats suggest.

I'm sorry but this thread has disintegrated, it would put people off.

MiaZ
I'm sorry I don't understand some of the points you are making.
You used the apple tree analogy to suggest that Boomers have taken all the pickings and left you with nothing because there is a housing shortage. How do you think the housing shortage is the fault of boomers? I cited various things that have exacerbated the housing shortage significantly which you ignored - ok - but I still don't see what you think boomers could have done differently. People who bought houses aren't responsible for the present lack of supply.

Pensions - most of the wealth held in pensions isn't down to state pensions which are paid for by future generations to an extent ( although we were all told our NI contributions were for that and most elected to pay additional NI contributions on top ) but from private pensions which people contributed to throughout their working life and which were invested throughout that time. My husband worked from the age of 15 (he wasn't allowed the luxury of further education because his family needed the income) until 66 and paid for private pensions throughout all those years. That money was invested in the stock market and bonds. When he retired he was told what that was worth and that has to fund the rest of his life. The state pension is shrinking in real terms all the time, many pensioners who rely on that must choose between not being able to eat enough and freezing in the winter.
Factor in that there may well be extorionate health and or care costs to pay for in the future and every penny of that pension could be vital.
When wealth in pensions is calculated they use the fund value of a private pension, but the individual doesn't have that sum to access freely, it is used to pay their pension payments via the purchase of annuity and perhaps some lump sum payments for the rest of their life. On paper they have high wealth but it's not a big spending pot they can just blow.

As DSL commented it took them a lifetime to amass the supposed wealth. She made a lot of other pertinent points which you seem to ignore.

Whenever intergenerational comparisons are made they focus on narrow things in both directions. We had no central heating, an outside toilet, no proper bathroom, no car, no phone, no internet, when I was growing up. I had one holiday before I was an adult and have had only a handful in the decades since. I don't drink, smoke, eat out, buy takeaways. The so called wealth I have is barely sufficient to buy the bungalow we need and it was saved over a lifetime of frugal living.
Now, I know that isn't the case for everyone but:
Many boomers did indeed marry young and take advantage of the cheap housing. A far lower percentage of them had access to higher education and their lifetime ability to adapt to the changing labour markets was thus reduced.
Many of them were brought up frugally and so did settle for less material possesions and spending on experiences than later generations. That's not a judgement on how anyone spends their money but it is a factor in how they were able to save up and contribute to their pensions over their lifetime.

There are people in all generation groups who seem intent on simplifying the issue down to the things that justify their own stance while ignoring the wider picture.

Ok before I read all the posts what the hell is a boomer and a millennial?

I noticed posts about house prices . Our first house in 1980 was £15,250 because I had always saved we only needed a £12,500 mortgage. Not long after we married mortgage rate when up to 15%. We had to do without a lot of things and all work on the house we did ourselves couldn't afford tradesmen.

Our wedding was done on the cheap. We catered for ourselves.Hired church hall. Mom and dad paid for the food and as we had been engaged for 5 years mom and dad brought a spirit when it was dirt cheap over the years. Beer was in party 7's.

We did have a camping holiday once before we brought our house and only had honeymoon in Hoseasons chalet for a week. No holiday until or daughter was born then it was off season in a caravan.

1985 sold house for £21,450 and new house cost £25,950. Which was at the top end of our budget. We had to save for holidays the children where getting on before we had a holiday in France in an out of the way cottage. Then it was holiday's in this country or Scotland or Ireland .

Sold my house in 2019 for £207,000 took reduced price as I just wanted to move. My bungalow was £220,000 had to use some savings. I have no income as been unable to work due to illness but never got any benefits even though my health got worse in 1988 and couldn't work only found out in April my diagnosis and I was born with it . Finally could put in a claim for PIP. Tried in the past for benefits but without a label they wouldn't even let me have or fill in the forms.

My husband died in 2004. He paid a lot in NI for 30 years . I have been told when I get my state pension in 2024 I am will get 43p from his contributions. ?.

Both my children paid for there own weddings only thing my daughter let me buy her dress which she just wanted an ordinary dress . Had it from Hobbs plus shoes. My son I brought him a suit ,shirt and tie but again he did it cheaply by having it from an ex hire outlet. It was cheaper to buy than hire . My son in law brought an ordinary suit he could use for work. My daughter in law when to an outlet wedding dress shop and brought a end of line dress .

Both couples had a budget and stuck to it. Both got married in registry office in November 4 years apart when they where 28 each couple. Both had lovely weather and brilliant wedding days.

Both couples rented and saved to buy their own houses. All worked hard and did without things so they could get their own homes. Neither had any help from me or other parents.

Very proud both couples have done everything themselves.

My parents brought their own house by working and saving.

No one gave my parents ,us or our children anything we all did it on our own.

My eldest niece and fiance brought their own house last year after years of saving and working hard.

Same for my brother and sister in law.

No one gave my parents or in law's ,us or our children anything. We all did it on our own.

If you want some thing you have to work hard,make sacrifices and save . I hate that some people expect something for nothing.

Better read the posts now.

DerbyshireLass

Indeed most millennials are worse off than their parents. But then so were most boomers when they were the age that millennials are now. Unless one is exceptionally well paid, inherits wealth or wins the lottery then wealth building is a slow process. It takes decades.

It's also a fallacy that all boomers are rolling in money, living in their large fancy houses, driving flash cars and swanning off on exotic holidays several times a year. I can't give you statistics but there are plenty of poor boomers around, surviving on very modest pensions or in low paid jobs. Many of them have always rented and have never been able to buy a property.

One thing that is often overlooked is that within the next 20 years or so the boomers will be dying off. We are set for the biggest transfer of generational wealth the world has ever seen, at least in the developed nations,

Some boomers (myself included) have already passed some of their wealth onto our children. I have given both of my children deposits for their first houses. But not all parents can afford to do this, they need the equity in their houses to pay for their old age.

Mia, I understand that you live in the US. I don't know what kind of financial education you received in schools, here in the U.K. it's non existent.

We have a financial whizz kid called Martin Lewis who is campaigning to have personal finance put on the school curriculum. He has a website called moneysavingexpert.com. It's well worth a look even if you don't live in the U.K. because the principles of personal finance are the same the world over.

I've learned a lot from that website. I only wish I had known at the age 30 what I know now, I would have been a multi millionaire by now. ??. Never mind.

I can also thoroughly recommend a book called "Nice Girls Dont Get Rich: 75 Avoidable Mistakes That Women Make" . By Lois P Frankel. She does live in the US so I think you would find it very helpful and relevant. Some of the facts and figures she quotes maybe a little dated now but it's the concepts behind the figures that are important.

If I can give you a piece of financial advice. Learn about the Compound Effect. I wasn't much good at maths at school, so I never really grasped it until it was too late for me to benefit.

Einstein said "Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understand it, earns it; he who doesn't, pays it".

Also learn about the Rule of 72.

I only became financially savvy in my mid 50s. (I am now 71) up until then I took a very haphazard approach to my finances but I am making up for lost time. I am by no means rich but I have enough for my needs. I live a life of "elegant sufficiency".

And if I can give one last piece of fiscal advice, not just to Mia but to everyone,

We are heading for the mother of all recessions and a lot of people who are going to seriously struggle or even go under. Try to prepare whilst you can.

At my age I have weathered several recessions, it can be done but it's no picnic.

,com

Financial literacy is also practically non-existent in the United States.

However, I have a certificate in financial planning and I'm a professional licensed accountant, and I agree 100% that's a lot of really great advice for people.

I can tell that you've got the heart of a teacher, and you have a wealth of knowledge that so many people need to hear.

Please keep giving helpful advice like this to people, especially young women.

One thing though, I didn't say all boomers are rolling in wealth. I stated a fact about the wealth distribution by age cohort.

My family is poor and my boomer relatives all live with their adult children and survive on social security, so I would never say something like all boomers are wealthy.

Okay seriously though, I do need support about my other thread because I want to compromise.

I'm the OP of the thread and I asked for "the estranger" perspective. I'm aware that everyone can post on any thread, however, people who don't identify as "estrangers" came to the thread and gave their opinions about why the "estrangers" are wrong which led to arguing, etc.

It's frustrating and tiresome for everyone, so can we please have a truce or something?

I'm not saying this would be forever, but maybe we try it for a week and see how it goes?

My thread is about how people who identify as "estrangers" feel and I want it to be a safe space for people to share how they feel.

So, for the next week, how about the people who don't identify as "estrangers" observe the thread but refrain from commenting

Again, I can't dictate who goes where, I'm just trying to give everyone some space to feel safe.

As I understand it, this specific thread is for everyone who is dealing with estrangement. However, I'm happy to stop commenting here and will do so if I can just find a resolution to my problem.

If people want to make a new thread for "the non-estrangers" maybe that would help? I honestly don't know, it's just a suggestion on because the goal is not to exclude anyone.

I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I have no problem refraining from commenting in such a space, whatever it's called

Again, I'm not suggesting people stop commenting forever on the other thread, I'm just suggesting a trial period so that my thread can have a chance.

Thanks to everyone for helping me figure this problem out.

It's actually not true that boomers were worse off or the same when they were our age. The oldest millennials are 40.

Boomers often married young, had kids, and bought houses well before 30 back then and it's part of the reason millennials get accused of not growing up fast enough.

Additionally, corporate investors are a problem in real estate, however, the larger problem is still that there are not enough houses for everyone, even if the corporations left.

The population has increased at a faster rate than the number of dwellings built. The fact that corporate investors own houses doesn't negate the fact that there aren't enough houses, it just exacerbates the problem.

I have to remind folks that just because you/your family/your friends personally don't have a lot of wealth/power doesn't change the fact that boomers hold the majority of wealth power.

It's unreasonable to reject facts because they don't represent your personal situation.

I didn't make up those numbers, I found credible sources for them. Now the apple orchard thing, that's not a fact of course, just a example of my opinion about the situation.

When 20% of the population controls 80% of the wealth, and you're in that 20%, of course you think you earned it. Defined benefit pensions were not earned, they were just normal as people always expected the future generations to pay those defined benefits. The appreciation in real estate was also not earned, it was a function of the market.

But the fact remains that if 20% of the group holds 80% of the wealth, that's going to create problems because 80% of the population is fighting over 20% of the wealth. So when the 20% tell the 80% to just work harder, it's not going to go well.

I was watching an interesting video earlier on depression and anxiety. The speaker confirms that people are indeed becoming unhappier. He points out that society is becoming increasingly consumer led in behaviour, led by capitalist advertising, and how this is a direct cause. He points our that we need co-operative tribal behaviour to thrive.

www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_this_could_be_why_you_re_depressed_or_anxious

What he didn't touch on is how our tribal instincts are often now coming out in negative ways (divisive identity politics are often fuelled by an increased use of social media and a reduction in positive community connections) and how capitalism has a vested interest in fueling division and keeping us unhappy then selling us 'the solutions.' Profits thrive on a miserable customer base.

If you look at politics, and how those in power maintain that power much more effectively by dividing the support of any opposing factions it soon becomes obvious that there are political advantages in a similar situation.

Just reread your post Mia.

I realise I didn't address the bit about happiness.

Whilst I get that struggling to achieve one's financial goals can leave one feeling frustrated, disappointed and maybe helpless I don't think it's a simple equation of wealth = happiness.

One's happiness quotient can't be measured in fiscal terms, there are, after all, plenty of utterly miserable billionaires. And there are plenty of people who are as poor as a church mouse who are as happy as the day is long.

I don't know why some people are happy with little whilst some are never happy and satisfied. I just don't think it has anything to do with the size of ones bank balance.

I do know that happiness is not transactional.....I will be happy when........I'm rich, I lose the weight, I get the job, I meet my special person....fill in the the blanks.

There's a ton of research out there (sorry far too much for me to reference) that indicate that reaching goals and achieving success becomes much easier when it comes from a happiness mindset. In other words success doesn't make us happy but rather in order to be successful we must first be happy.

It might sound seem an alien concept but we first have to chose to be happy and then we can pursue our goals.

Hugshelp. I read that you are struggling with your sale. I have to say I'm a bit concerned about mine. It's gone ominously quiet. I need to start progress chasing,

Such a palaver. High time the whole system was overhauled.

Indeed most millennials are worse off than their parents. But then so were most boomers when they were the age that millennials are now. Unless one is exceptionally well paid, inherits wealth or wins the lottery then wealth building is a slow process. It takes decades.

It's also a fallacy that all boomers are rolling in money, living in their large fancy houses, driving flash cars and swanning off on exotic holidays several times a year. I can't give you statistics but there are plenty of poor boomers around, surviving on very modest pensions or in low paid jobs. Many of them have always rented and have never been able to buy a property.

One thing that is often overlooked is that within the next 20 years or so the boomers will be dying off. We are set for the biggest transfer of generational wealth the world has ever seen, at least in the developed nations,

Some boomers (myself included) have already passed some of their wealth onto our children. I have given both of my children deposits for their first houses. But not all parents can afford to do this, they need the equity in their houses to pay for their old age.

Mia, I understand that you live in the US. I don't know what kind of financial education you received in schools, here in the U.K. it's non existent.

We have a financial whizz kid called Martin Lewis who is campaigning to have personal finance put on the school curriculum. He has a website called moneysavingexpert.com. It's well worth a look even if you don't live in the U.K. because the principles of personal finance are the same the world over.

I've learned a lot from that website. I only wish I had known at the age 30 what I know now, I would have been a multi millionaire by now. ??. Never mind.

I can also thoroughly recommend a book called "Nice Girls Dont Get Rich: 75 Avoidable Mistakes That Women Make" . By Lois P Frankel. She does live in the US so I think you would find it very helpful and relevant. Some of the facts and figures she quotes maybe a little dated now but it's the concepts behind the figures that are important.

If I can give you a piece of financial advice. Learn about the Compound Effect. I wasn't much good at maths at school, so I never really grasped it until it was too late for me to benefit.

Einstein said "Compound interest is the eighth wonder of the world. He who understand it, earns it; he who doesn't, pays it".

Also learn about the Rule of 72.

I only became financially savvy in my mid 50s. (I am now 71) up until then I took a very haphazard approach to my finances but I am making up for lost time. I am by no means rich but I have enough for my needs. I live a life of "elegant sufficiency".

And if I can give one last piece of fiscal advice, not just to Mia but to everyone,

We are heading for the mother of all recessions and a lot of people who are going to seriously struggle or even go under. Try to prepare whilst you can.

At my age I have weathered several recessions, it can be done but it's no picnic.


,com

One final thought, many younger people will at least inherit something eventually which might help. My mum left me a torch worth about £3 and my dad left me nowt. Most of my generation's parents lived in rented housing so although housing was cheaper we could expect zero financial help with that or anything else.

And personally, I'm not technically a boomer, nor wealthy and my pension pot is minuscule.

I don't think the average homeowner, from any generation, has much say in how many houses are built. Nor on house prices.

Wouldn't it be expected that older people have more money in pensions than younger people, since they would have been paying into their pensions for decades?

But back to the housing problem:

There has been a huge increase in recent years of corporate investors buying housing stock.

There has been a massive surge in buy to let companies.

Offshore investors have been increasingly been buying UK properties. amounting to roughly 1 per cent of total housing stock www.ft.com/content/e36cec28-7acd-4154-b57d-923b5d1610da

There has been an increasing problem of the housing market being used for money laundering www.propertymark.co.uk/resource/uk-government-brings-forward-economic-crime-bill.html

The average 'boomer' (and I hate these divisive terms) may hang onto their home longer than previous generations by dint of living longer but that's hardly a malicious choice.

I'm trying to buy a bungalow atm, health and disability problems dictate I really need one. The modest terrace house we are selling will not finance much. Bungalows have become extortionate compared to other housing. Builders don't build many now as they can make more money on townhouses. Huge numbers of bungalows have been bought, generally by people who don't need a bungalow per se and then been altered so they are no longer usable by people who cannot manage stairs. So older people who would love to move out of their houses into a small bungalow are unable to.

Mandrake

As a millennial who knows a lot of millennials, it's not that we don't want houses and just want to travel and party.

It's that most can see that they'll never be able to afford houses, so might as well travel or do something we want with our lives instead of digging and scraping for something that's not going to happen.

I had lunch with my boss and coworker today, also millennials, and my boss and her husband are both professionals. They own a house but had to have help from both sets of parents for the down payment.

Now they are moving to a state closer to their family because they...a professional accountant and a lawyer....can't afford childcare for both kids and pay their mortgage and pay student loans.

My partner, a millennial, makes 6 figures and couldn't afford is house without help from his parents.

I'm not saying that all millennials want houses and a picket fence...but even the ones that do can't do it alone. My personal net worth is much higher than most people in my age range, but at most, I could only afford a 1 bdrm condo.

There are always exceptions to the rule, but by and large millennials are worse off than their parents.

The only silver lining is that we aren't Gen Z.

Oh dear, Whats the name of the other thread MiaZadora81?