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Estrangement

Handling Duty/Obligation as the "estranger" ;

(211 Posts)
MiaZadora81 Tue 19-Jul-22 20:42:21

From my perspective, the discussion on estrangement tends to center on who's to blame or who is at fault, but I'm interested in what people who think of themselves as the "estranger" are experiencing in terms of duty/obligation/guilt over those who you've estranged.

In my case, I'm estranged from my aunt but she has two bio daughters who are in her life. One of my cousins thinks that I'm shirking my duty, and that I have an obligation to help my aunt because she helped raise me. The other one doesn't see it that way because I'm not my aunt's biological child.

In my opinion, no one asks to be born, therefore kids don't inherently owe their parents anything because it's not like they agreed to be born in exchange for taking care of their parents later, but I'm aware that varies from culture to culture.

"Estrangers", what are your experiences/thoughts with this? Do you struggle with any feelings of guilt and how do you handle it?

Also, just for fun, what's your favorite ice cream flavor? Mine is cake batter flavor smile

MiaZadora81 Thu 21-Jul-22 23:15:22

MissAdventure

There is no conversation to be had, if parents are expected to just sit back and agree that they were useless, though, which is what is happening.
No toxicity, just people defending themselves by pointing out that each situation is different.

If that puts people off posting, I'm surprised, because it is nothing personal towards them.

How could it be, since nobody knows anyone else, or their family dynamics personally.

No toxicity, just people defending themselves by pointing out that each situation is different.

Defending themselves = Coming into a thread that wasn't meant for them to tell everyone how great they are as parents and how much they dont deserve what their terrible kid did. Attacking credible sources that don't agree with their own opinions...I could go on.

If that puts people off posting, I'm surprised, because it is nothing personal towards them

Uh, it's not about it being personal. People give up on posting because they see that the usual suspects will inevitably come and turn it into a variation of "youre wrong and im right bc im the mom lalalala". It's beating your head against a brick wall and most people prefer not to do that.

Seriously, why must people keep coming in and giving the same opinion over and over on threads not meant for them...then get upset when someone posts on their friend thread?

Let people have the space to share their feelings without being invalidated.

MissAdventure Thu 21-Jul-22 23:33:29

Like you did on the support for estrangement thread, you mean?

MissAdventure Thu 21-Jul-22 23:35:36

Anyway, I really am out now.
Promise.

MiaZadora81 Thu 21-Jul-22 23:59:28

MissAdventure

Like you did on the support for estrangement thread, you mean?

Are you saying I'm not welcome on the support thread? People keep saying it's for everyone, its in the title, etc and yet people don't seem to be very supportive. sad

I'm back on the support thread because I need support due to this thread being taken over. If this thread can ever get back to its purpose, I won't need support.

I hope that helps smile

MissAdventure Fri 22-Jul-22 00:49:37

No, you post wherever and whatever you want.
Hope that helps you. smile

imaround Fri 22-Jul-22 01:03:26

I will never understand why there can not be 2 support threads.

I am out though! No sense in having the same conversation again TBH. We all know where we stand and nothing is accomplished by rehashing.

I hope you all are getting some relief from the heat over there!

riete Fri 22-Jul-22 03:08:13

i've just read through thursday's posts, and there's a lot of stuff. not all of it valuable, but some of it very valuable. so, many thanks to those with a positive attitude.

but my bottom line for today is, is there any point in us looking for the very simplest starting point that we might all be able to agree?

i think we could start with two basic statements:

there are those who estrange, and those who are estranged; and each "camp" has multitudinous scenarios and viewpoints.

those who estrange do it (by and large) because they think/hope they will feel better/happier by so doing. and those who are estranged (by and large) are not happy about it.

i'd be very pleased to know if anyone agrees with those two, and if they don't maybe what they disagree with.

DiamondLily Fri 22-Jul-22 07:20:52

MissAdventure

No, you post wherever and whatever you want.
Hope that helps you. smile

Yep, public forums are there for anyone to post on, on whatever thread, providing the site rules are adhered to, with no abuse etc.,

Closed groups are different, as the admin can decide who they want on them.

For what it's worth, since I've been lurking and posting, this place works pretty well. Differences of opinion are normal, but no harm done really, unless one group start accusing another group of with lying or denying the truth.

Every estrangement is different. The only people that understand their own scenario, fully, are those involved in it. ?

Smileless2012 Fri 22-Jul-22 08:44:36

Yes that's right about public forums DiamondLily and I think it was recently suggested on the support thread about a private chat room being set up. That's not what's we want because we want the support and what is shared there to be accessible to everyone.

It might be something you'd like to consider though Mia as you feel this thread is being taken over.

Yes, I agree with those two basic statements riete.

DiamondLily Fri 22-Jul-22 09:23:37

Smileless2012

Yes that's right about public forums DiamondLily and I think it was recently suggested on the support thread about a private chat room being set up. That's not what's we want because we want the support and what is shared there to be accessible to everyone.

It might be something you'd like to consider though Mia as you feel this thread is being taken over.

Yes, I agree with those two basic statements riete.

The problem with chat rooms is that they are held in "real time" and it's difficult to get everybody on at the same time.

Most have fairly busy real lives, and the chat rooms often fade away with lack of people.

Closed forums can be very insular with the same small group repeating themselves and going around in repetitive circles. (I know from some of the disability ones.)

Open forums are best, if everyone remains courteous. Debate and conversation is ok, hectoring and personal attacks are not.?

Smileless2012 Fri 22-Jul-22 09:30:27

I agree with what you say about chat rooms DL which is why I wouldn't want to be on one. My experience of closed forums is the same as yours.

They're often too constrained with only like minded people sharing and miss out on the opportunity for broader and more diverse conversation.

So it's open forums for me. Hectoring and personal attacks are unpleasant but the more you use open forums, the thicker your skin gets grin.

Madgran77 Fri 22-Jul-22 10:03:52

riete those who estrange do it (by and large) because they think/hope they will feel better/happier by so doing. and those who are estranged (by and large) are not happy about it

I agree with those two statements riete. I believe that each can help the other to understand/ at least consider alternative perspectives to their own and thus hopefully gain insight into their own personal situation, ways forward in that situation or acceptance of a situation over time. Sometimes I see that happen on GN. Sometimes I see the opposite.

hugshelp Fri 22-Jul-22 10:58:12

I've been reading and mulling over whether to share my own situation as estranger. Truth is my parents are long dead and I haven't thought about it much in recent years so I've taken a little time remembering and thinking about it.

My mum had serious mental health problems to the extent she was regularly institutionalised and dangerous. I was taken away from her for a couple of years for my own safety. By then my family literally feared for my life and sent me to another relative. She also abused me sometimes, but less so.

I never estranged from mum but learned when to avoid her for long periods depending on how scary she was. I went through long spells of anger, mainly at other people for not protecting me better when they knew how ill she was, but sometimes at her too.
I felt guilt when I did keep my distance even though it was for my own safety, and I obviously had to keep my children safe, but I think the guilt was really a symptom of the fact I couldn't help being angry but felt bad about it. Eventually, I was able to split my anger at her illness away from my anger at her and continued with sporadic contact where I felt able to be supportive.

I was often angry at a sibling who learned to manipulate mum and would deliberately get me beaten. I am estranged from him but made no formal decision to do so - we just drifted apart and even as an adult if I disagreed with anything he said he would threaten to smash my windows in, slash my tyres etc. He never lost his anger. I have no guilt there.

I also drifted apart from the relative who looked after me for a while, but we are now very close. She had counselling before we talked at length. We now both know she was as much a victim of our upbringing as me.

My father was a drunk who turned a blind eye and occasionally lashed out. I put up with a lot from him but made the decision to estrange from him when he spoke about his grandchildren and made it clear the statement did not include my children and put the desire to enjoy his growly dogs above the wellbeing of my kids when we visited. I felt no guilt about that, but when he got old, his wife contacted me and said how much our estrangement hurt him. I visited him and saw him for the sad broken man he was. There was no joy in it for me but no real pain either. He'd never been a father. I didn't go to his funeral.

I never abused nor neglected the son who estranged me. But I often think I must have overcompensated for my upbringing and that might be the way I failed as a mother. He has accused me of things I absolutely know, and others know, are untrue, but in a very general way. It took years before he gave me a reason at all, and that reason has changed since he did. If anyone disagrees with his way of thinking he estranges them. So I feel guilt at being the estranged one as I don't really know why it has happened but still often think I must be to blame. Other times I remember I always did my absolute best and genuinely didn't do the things he suggests. I've asked him to tell me about any single incident that hurt him and tell me how I can make ammends. He never has.

My half-sister was abused and abandoned by her mother. She was permanently injured and spent many years in care. She estranged herself for some time but eventually made peace, saying that her mother was young and couldn't cope. She sat with her mother and cared for her while she was dying. A process that took a few days, was really difficult, and incidentally very messy. My sister says it comforts her to know she could forgive and didn't let her mum die alone.

Smileless2012 Fri 22-Jul-22 11:10:40

Just want to say what a moving post hugs. You've seen what abuse and estrangement can do from both side flowers.

hugshelp Fri 22-Jul-22 11:37:51

I think what I have taken, for myself, from all that is that once I really worked through it all I had no more grudges against those who hurt me, saw them as the flawed people they were, and forgave them. That doesn't make me any kind of saint or superwoman, but it was when I lost the pain. For I learned I could take them or leave them, didn't need the estrangment nor to give them undue headspace, and could feel ok.
I regret neither the long estrangement from my father nor the bumpy relationships with others I kept contact with. I think the fact that Estrangers need these posts is testament to the fact it causes great pain whichever side you are on and I wish everyone the best resolution they can find for themselves.

Madgran77 Fri 22-Jul-22 11:39:56

hugshelp thankyou for sharing that.

You have experienced estrangement in different ways, and your thoughtful and measured posts are a support to many who are estranged, whether instigated by them or by someone else to them. I have always admired your balanced and carefully but honestly expressed posts!

There are no "sides" in estrangement really, there are experiences and sadness, sometimes anger, sometimes wisdom, sometimes healing, sometimes acceptance. It is not a "group" that anyone would want to join! flowers

hugshelp Fri 22-Jul-22 11:45:55

Thank you madgran - that is very well expressed too. I have always found your posts to be insightful and compassionate.

Smileless2012 Fri 22-Jul-22 11:49:18

"There are no "sides" in estrangement really" that's true Madgran and no, it is definitely not a "group" anyone wants to be a member of.

DerbyshireLass Fri 22-Jul-22 12:04:26

Hugshelp. Thank you for sharing your story. I am sure it will give comfort to many. It is a testament that it is possible to live a full and happy life, whichever side of the estrangement fence we are on.

Letting go of the pain, resentment, anger and not bearing grudges are I think the key. If we remain mired in misery then we can't move forward. We remained trapped in the past.

It's not easy to let go of the hurt but we cannot heal until we do.

Chewbacca Fri 22-Jul-22 13:08:05

You've experienced the pain of estrangement from both sides hugshelp and I'm in awe and admiration of how you've come to terms with it with such a level of acceptance and equanimity and with no bitterness or rancour. flowers

DiamondLily Fri 22-Jul-22 14:06:46

I think angst with childhood is a bit like the end of a bad marriage.

You have to let go of the anger, bitterness and resentment to really thrive.

I was furious when I first left my first marriage, after 30 years - full of determination to get my own back.

But, I realised that the only one getting stressed was me, so I put the whole thing down to experience and accepting that I probably was some of the problem as well.

It worked for me. ?

Smileless2012 Fri 22-Jul-22 15:39:39

That's a good analogy DiamondLilysmile.

DiamondLily Fri 22-Jul-22 15:41:36

Smileless2012

That's a good analogy DiamondLilysmile.

I no longer wish to hit him with my cricket bat....?

Smileless2012 Fri 22-Jul-22 15:50:31

I'm sure he'll be relieved to hear that grin

VioletSky Fri 22-Jul-22 16:07:04

hugshelp you have been through such a lot.

I know I wouldn't turn my back on my mother if she ends up vulnerable and alone but I sincerely hope more for her sake than mine, that she doesn't