Handling Duty/Obligation as the "estranger" ;

DerbyshireLass has indeed a very healthy and forward looking approach to estrangement; acceptance that this is the way it is, optimism and positivity looking forward, don't waste a moment looking back at what might have been.

Are you saying that Cambridge University is biased towards EAC Smileless?

Are you saying that EP should look at their estrangement with acceptance. Optimism and positivity as well Chewbacca?

No not at all imaround. What I'm saying is that for me, there is insufficient data to support a claim that most EAC estrange because of abuse. There's no bias either way.

I realise that your last question was for Chewbacca imaround but as an EP I would say that yes, estrangement does need to be viewed with acceptance because there's nothing you can do to change it.

I don't think it's ever truly possible to look at it with optimism and positivity though, when you have lost the child you love.

* Smileless* I don't think it matters what "most" people in a survey say unless what actually matters is how we think that reflects on us..

If 80% or most of the respondants said they estranged because they couldnt be bothered with their parents I would be saying the exact same thing.

I've tried to be fair in the past and say that we could call it 50/50 and when it comes to whether a relationship breaking down was due to the parent or adult child and that wasn't accepted either...

But it still doesn't matter. If most AC did genuinely estrange due to abuse, it doesn't impact anyone's individual situation or make it less valid.

Individual situations are still dictated by the behaviour that caused them and that matters and I would tell anyone that statistics may give information but help and support must be available to everyone who needs it. Even if it was just 1% that help and support is needed and we should not make assumptions.

Especially as Stand Alone is a wonderful resource for anyone dealing with estrangement or concerned with preventing it.

It seems right that they would look into it from all angles and ask these questions.

I am not really interested in resolving my estrangement situation but I am interested in how and why it happened and how to prevent it in future.

Think of it like surviving cancer and continuing to donate for a cure.

How much data would be enough? I ask that seriously. And, since the repondants this these studies answered honestly, what makes you think that a larger field of participants would change the findings?

Hypothetically, if there were a million EAC who responded and the results were the same, would you still think the same way?

This conversation will not go forward until everyone looks at the data, however limited it is, and says why is there such a discrepancy in what EAC and EP report?

I'm saying that I agree wholeheartedly with DerbyshireLass's @ post 11.44 imaround.

imaround I think some of that discrepancy comes from actual changes in parenting/parenting advice/parenting guidelines and differences of opinion over discipline, how children should behave and how we relate to children and understand their mental health individual needs and just how intelligent and deserving of respect they are

100% VS

What our parents and parents parents et al did in the past was not wrong at the time.

At a basic level, my mother was punish the behaviour and I was always understand the cause

imaround

100% VS

What our parents and parents parents et al did in the past was not wrong at the time.

No it wasn't, but we have to understand that it was damaging.

We all have to work with the information given.

I've parented over quite a large span and I have felt how hard it is to know xyz is actually researched and proven as wrong.

So I've adapted and will apologise if I ever need too for any future changes

Parenting has changed since I had my kids and mine are teens and young adults.

I still do not believe that past parenting practices necessarily make someone an abusive person though.

True

I totally agree with the first paragraph of your post @ 20.02 VS. What matters is what we have experienced as EP's and as EAC.

I also agree with you imaround "how much data would be enough?". It can provide an insight as to why estrangement happens, it can be a useful tool in prevention from both sides but we are talking about people, emotions and feelings. For me, no amount of data will explain the discrepancy between what EAC and EP's say.

I think if a million EAC were surveyed and the results for each were the same than yes, that would be a solid foundation to work with. But would happen if a million EP's were also surveyed, and their results were all the same but those results were totally opposite to those from the million EAC?

Smileless, that is actually the issue here. This isn't about how many responded. The real problem is, why are the results from each side so different?

It doesn't matter if it is one respondant or a million, the mere fact that what they are saying is the problem.

We all know that some EAC were abused. We know not all EP are abusive. Saying it over and over and over again on every single post is counter-productive and does nothing to further the conversation and advance the knowledge of WHY estrangement happens and how to prevent it in the future.

There is no conversation to be had, if parents are expected to just sit back and agree that they were useless, though, which is what is happening.
No toxicity, just people defending themselves by pointing out that each situation is different.

If that puts people off posting, I'm surprised, because it is nothing personal towards them.

How could it be, since nobody knows anyone else, or their family dynamics personally.

When did anyone say that parents were expected to sit back and say they were useless?

Asking why there is a difference in what is being reported is not expecting anyone to admit they are wrong.

I'm not going to trawl back and give all the examples, but that is the whole tone of the thread, I would say.

Anyway, the thread does ask for estrangers' perspectives, so I'll mind my own business now. as I should have done in the first place

The OP asks about handling feeling of duty and obligation.

It seems the estrangement threads on gransnet move inexorably towards polarised posts from EAC and EPs, generally seeking to put most of ‘the blame’ onto the EAC or EP.
Is it impossible to acknowledge that estrangement is a dreadful experience for everyone in touches.
I’m clear that in some situations adult children and/or, parents reach the point where estrangement becomes the only healthy response.

Not all people are kind, honest or honourable. Some adults abuse or neglect their children. Some people have distorted views of their family life. No winners here.

Possible answers

Some AC are in abusive relationships with spouces distancing them from family.

Some AC are making up abuse

Some EP are making up innocence

All abusive people are lying about their behaviour

How likely each of those are I can't quantify for certain...

I agree imaround that is the issue here and TBH I don't think we'll ever know why estrangement happens.

We can talk about our own experiences. An EAC can talk about the things that led to them estranging their parent(s), the things their parent(s) did, but will they ever really know why, or understand why they did those things?

It's the same for EP's. I can and do talk about the things that resulted in our son estranging us, but I'll never understand why the love that I know we once shared wasn't enough to prevent it from happening. Why the influence of a third party was strong enough to destroy something that I thought could never be destroyed.

I agree that saying over and over again that some EAC were abused and not all EP's are abusive can be counter productive, but this is what happens when people feel, as MissA's posted that they have to defend themselves.

Does it really matter to an EAC who estranged because of abuse if it's believed that's why most AC estrange? I can't answer that because although I experienced abuse it wasn't at the hands of my parents and I was never in a position to estrange my abuser.

That said, if I were to be asked if it really matters to an EP if it's believed that abuse is the reason most AC estrange, my answer would be yes. It matters because it can make an EP feel that if they they never abused their EAC, they wont be believed.

Oops, that should have said 'that if they say' not that if they they.

EAC hear:

"My parent was awful but I would never estrange"

"You will regret it one day"

"How will you feel when they die"

"Emotional abuse isn't as bad as physical or sexual abuse"

" You only have one mother"

EP hear:

"There is no smoke without fire"

"You must have done something wrong"

Obviously off the top of my head it's easier to give examples of what have been said to me and I'm afraid, much more here in this place than anywhere else. I work with an EP and she has never said anything negative and mothers me a bit.

It's not very nice, it's not.

I think it's probably easy for people to look at me at the times when I have been unwell or emotional and I have been reactive to triggers... then think "well she is obviously the problem" forgetting that my mother installed those trigger buttons and healing is how l move past them.

But as much as I've given advice from an AC perspective or taked about abusive parents I can genuinely say, I don't think I've ever said to any EP any variation of those two examples...

I may have tried to tell them they were triggering me in the past.

We could all move past this. People could read this forum and come to join the discussion instead of coming in hot and triggered.

If any of that makes sense, work is hectic, I'm exhausted and hurting and I need sleep that is being elusive.