Do abusive people know they are abusive?

I think it comes back to, if someone is saying, I won't have a relationship with you until you give me this thing (money, childcare, property etc)...that's abuse and it's more silent treatment than estrangement because it has an outcome.

If someone is saying, I can't have a relationship with you until you change a behaviour that's hurting me.. then that is never abuse. Whether you agree you should change that behaviour or not.

My Dad was the same it was when I grew up and had a voice and opinion on things. He didn't like that.

It all comes down to control.

His moods would last for days sometimes then a switch would flick and he would be fine. It was like walking on eggshells.

He was also a fantastic Grandad, he's passed away now but my children never got old enough for them to see the man child he was and I'm greatful they have the memories of a fun grandad. I never want to rubbish that for them.

He sounds Grade A idiot. I could call him a few more choice things but I don't want to get banned

There was nothing wrong with you icanhandthemback. There was a lot wrong with your parents.
I never felt that any of it was my fault. I hated the way we were treated. I knew it wasn't normal or my fault.
Bizarrely, apart from my older sister, none of us cut our father off later in life. He was very much part of the family, yet he left us all damaged in some way. How strange life is.

It is an example of control PoppyBlue. They can control the entire family can't they by getting them to do whatever they want so they don't get into a mood or using a mood to control their family.

So there he is DSL, having some contact with his children and GC despite having told them they were no longer children of his, and ignoring them for 10 years and here we and so many are, with no contact with an EAC or our GC despite having done nothing to explain our estrangements.

I'm glad you never felt any of it was your fault Kate. Goodness knows you had enough to deal with when you were a child, and enough to process when you were older, without having to cope with a sense of responsibility as well.

Thank you Smileless. I have heard that some people blame themselves. I knew I hadn't done anything wrong.

That's what you need to hold on to Kate. As EP's we've been
blamed made to feel responsible for losing our son, but we know we haven't done anything wrong and that's what we hold on to.

It's hard for you Smileless

Smileless2012

It is an example of control PoppyBlue. They can control the entire family can't they by getting them to do whatever they want so they don't get into a mood or using a mood to control their family.

So there he is DSL, having some contact with his children and GC despite having told them they were no longer children of his, and ignoring them for 10 years and here we and so many are, with no contact with an EAC or our GC despite having done nothing to explain our estrangements.

Well, he's the loser. My GC view my DH as their "grandad", because he's always been there for them, and my ex is just a pesky relative that no one quite knows what to do with.?

Sad really.

It's strange isn't it DL. We think and talk about the people who have messed with our lives, and at times made them hell and there's one word that we use time and time again, when we think about what they've done to us and how it's impacted on their lives, and that word is sad.

Smileless2012

Really!!!! I don't think so.

She was agreeing with you that estrangement forum is for everyone and that you had said so on the thread previously referenced.

Not insulting you.

Smileless2012

It's strange isn't it DL. We think and talk about the people who have messed with our lives, and at times made them hell and there's one word that we use time and time again, when we think about what they've done to us and how it's impacted on their lives, and that word is sad.

I genuinely feel sorry for him. He will end up as a lonely old man. He's cut off friends, his relationship with our kids/GCs is basically trashed, and I bet he doesn't understand that he is the problem.

He has got many good points and redeeming features, but it all gets buried under his passive-aggressive behaviour and his constant neediness and need to be seen as a victim of either his childhood or me.

I suppose we just both married the wrong person. He needed someone that would constantly sympathise and pander to his moods, and I needed someone stronger (mentally) that could move on from the past, and just live the life.

I'm amazed we held it together for 30 years lol ?

You did well DL, it can't have been easy.

My husband and I both had difficult childhoods, different ways though.

We have supported each other through so much. We have both had periods of mental illness and stress due to our

I suppose we could have written each other off as too damaged at many points but neither of us did.

We have brought up a wonderful family together, shown out children the love and the solidarity we didn't get.

Its amazing what can be achieved with a little love and understanding

Due to our upbringing that should say

Smileless2012

You did well DL, it can't have been easy.

Well, between us, we produced two great kids. So, I will never regret it because of that. We both had difficult childhoods (his worse than mine with physical abuse and neglect), but we just dealt with it, as adults, very differently.

And now, I'm with my "soulmate", and life's pretty good, on the whole.

Notwithstanding other people playing us up.?

Ah you can't beat being with your soulmate DL .

Smileless2012

Ah you can't beat being with your soulmate DL .

Nope, you can’t. Even though I could brain him some days...?

Yeah I know what you mean DL. I'm sure there are days when Mr. S. wants to brain me too but 42 years next month, and both our brains are still in tact, well as far as I know.

Well done on clocking up that many happy years!.?

Thanks DL.

Whenever I've found myself pondering the behaviour of someone who has treated me badly and I'm trying to understand their motivation, I ask myself, 'why do I need to know?. For me, this is far more instructive and potentially healing.

eg - did my father try his best and was incapable, or did he never give a fig?
Why do I care? - I want to find a redeeming quality in him, after all, genes - I don't want to be the child of a monster. I want to see him in a good light because I value compassion and empathy in myself and being able to makes me feel kinder. I want to know if there's anything I can learn that will make me a better person. I want to know if I was ever loved, even a little bit, because being unloved makes me feel unlovable. Or to phrase it another way - if I am lovable and he didn't love me - why not? If I can pin down exactly why he couldn't I can strengthen my self-worth by being certain the fault wasn't with me. Etc etc etc.

Hugshelp, that's a useful discussion from you.

I always do what you suggest, and I find that I am the one at fault and also the other person is at fault. It's so hard to be able to say which one of us is most at fault.
The example you give, about the way your father treated you when you were a child, everyone will agree fathers ought not to bully their children and the child is always innocent.
However not all abuse is so clear cut and sometimes the victim of abuse is not as innocent as a little child.

"The example you give, about the way your father treated you when you were a child, everyone will agree fathers ought not to bully their children and the child is always innocent."
Of course, Calco.

We know a lot of things with our rational adult brains. But when we explore our own behaviour and the things we try to do to heal, we often find that we don't always 100% believe those things with our vulnerable child brain. Listening to our heart, our fears, often helps us move on where rational thinking cannot. We can get too stuck in our own heads trying to fix things sometimes. That's not to say reading self-help books isn't a good thing. It can often be really useful.

I think when we find the core damage within ourselves, the things we need to heal often become self-evident.

When you have been the victim of an abusive, neglectful childhood and have no idea what it is to be loved, for most people (not all) life us very difficult indeed. It's almost impossible to feel happiness when you are damaged.