Narcissists are boring

Hi Madgran Very thought provoking.
I think that perhaps an ‘understanding of the cause’ should be a priority of a person recovering from emotional abuse.
Compassion to others and oneself, leading to a degree of forgiveness and a sort of release.

Allsorts

The mothers you are talking about obviosly have mental illnesses. They don't consciously decide to be horrible, go into trances, being weird, the mind is damaged. You don't know all their story. I know it's hard to live with, it gets too much and you cut off, I understand that. You are entitled to cut your own path and good luck to you. If you need understanding for how it affected you, surely they need the same. By all means lead your own lives, don't have a thing to do with them, but don't judge but understand it's an illness.

Allsorts I think the difference here is that the mothers/parents are being identified as narcissists and the conversation is specifically about dealing with/recovering from narcissistic parents.

If the back story was, for example, a parent damaged in the war or damaged by a severely physically abusive childhood or a Parent who was bi-polar then I think understanding, if not forgiveness, (though not detracting from the impact on the AC who is trying to recover) comes more naturally.

With Narcissistic Personality Disorder, therapy can help but there is no cure and because a child's relationship with that person is interwoven with the narcissistic parenting, (which is often many variations on emotional abuse) then even if they understand, they will still have a need to frame and reframe their experiences, the impact on their own adult behaviours etc. Doing that doesn't mean a lack of understanding of the cause, but that isn't a priority on any level for an AC recovering/managing the impacts of that parenting.

And it's not going to be highlighted on a thread like this, pretty unsurprisingly!

What a weird thing to post on a thread where people have been coerced and abused

The mothers you are talking about obviosly have mental illnesses. They don't consciously decide to be horrible, go into trances, being weird, the mind is damaged. You don't know all their story. I know it's hard to live with, it gets too much and you cut off, I understand that. You are entitled to cut your own path and good luck to you. If you need understanding for how it affected you, surely they need the same. By all means lead your own lives, don't have a thing to do with them, but don't judge but understand it's an illness.

Yes it is, that's why it's so important we have these conversations and protect ourselves

I don't mind being neurodivergent either, yes it can help in some jobs and also it's good to think outside the box. I think we neurodivergent are good in teams because we see things that others don't see, adding that extra perspective that may have been missed or those important little details that matter.

Yes, to mirroring and making kids comfortable (of all ages haha, because everyone has that inner child)

I am also able to do that inner search and if I had done it, I would say so. That's why it's so frustrating having someone try to pin things on me that I know I haven't done. That's classic Projection for you, though.

Lol

Yes same with eye contact, so annoying

And if I get accused of doing something I haven't done I have to do a whole soul search to ask myself if I could possibly have done it and it can be so painful honestly

You should have seen me when a colleagues purse went missing. I'd have failed a lie detector and was very relieved when the culprit was caught red handed

Still, I don't mind being neurodivergent, it actually helps me in my job... especially things like mirroring children with SEN needs and making them feel comfortable

Is your Mum my Mum's sister Violetsky? My Mum used to go into trances and it was quite odd. She also made a lot of people uncomfortable and killed quite a lot of my friendships because they didn't want to come to our house anymore because "Your Mum's wierd!" . She probably did it on purpose.

I also struggle with eye contact and probably sometimes overdo it in an attempt to be sincere lol. Yes well, it's a good place to work when you are!

It was a less bonkers trait of hers to be fair...

She also believed she could psychically wish people ill and when bad things happened to people she didn't like she took the credit...

And she had techniques for making people uncomfortable like staring at their ears or nose...

As I can't make good eye contact, this is hard for me because I'm always worried I will make them uncomfortable so I've settled for just looking away from them!

Some people hate that and sort of try to move into your eyeline

Ah well, I work in a school, they all just understand I'm probably on the spectrum lol

VioletSky

OnwardandUpward

PS I probably do have narc tendencies as a result of being brought up by a narc... I think many people can have those without being full blown narc?

We need a certain level, everyone does, self preservation..

Otherwise it's called "fleas" when you pick up learned behaviour...

I remember my mother literaly teaching me how to manipulate people to get my way.

I just couldn't do it as I think I'm on the autistic spectrum and don't have much ability towards lyimg and faking emotions for attention.

So all I could do growing up was be very very quiet to avoid all the family secrets coming out

Plenty of behaviours I did pick up though but stopped when I saw the hurt looks on my own children's faces

But there is something I truly believe:

If you can be accountable and apologise while truly meaning it, you are unlikely to be an abusive narcissist at least...

I've never seen a genuine apology and change in behaviour from a narcissist

There is always an if or a but

Oh man, that's shocking Violetsky. I never got told how to be manipulative, but it wouldn't have worked anyway. As a child I was constantly in trouble for telling the truth. Unbelieveable isn't it! When you are a bit Autistic and take things literally it's really hard to fake anything so I have always been a bit unpopular with anyone who's not really truthful or high on integrity. You did well to be very quiet. I had to learn it too, but got in loads of trouble before that.

I've also never seen a genuine apology from a narcissist. Very rarely or never an apology at all. If they are desperate enough they may paint themselves a victim, though.

Smileless2012

*Onward* the only way to 'win' with a narcissist, is to stop playing. In my experience a narcissists tried and tested technique is to accuse someone else of doing what they are doing themselves.

If your son is aware that you were raised by a narc then accusing you of being one, is almost certainly going to cause you to question yourself, so don't. I agree with Doodledog, don't worry about inheriting narcissism.

Your son is projecting his own failings onto you. It's what they do.

Excellent and informative posts Doodledog.

Thanks Smileless, I have never mentioned it to my son as kids today think they invented narcissism haha. I don't question myself, but I do probably have some narcissistic tendencies as they might be hard to avoid having grown up with one. I don't think I project my failings onto anyone though and have always been willing to admit when something is my fault. Yes, projection is what they do. I still get it from the generation above me and I'm way beyond bored of it.

Yes, great post Doodlebug!

OnwardandUpward

PS I probably do have narc tendencies as a result of being brought up by a narc... I think many people can have those without being full blown narc?

We need a certain level, everyone does, self preservation..

Otherwise it's called "fleas" when you pick up learned behaviour...

I remember my mother literaly teaching me how to manipulate people to get my way.

I just couldn't do it as I think I'm on the autistic spectrum and don't have much ability towards lyimg and faking emotions for attention.

So all I could do growing up was be very very quiet to avoid all the family secrets coming out

Plenty of behaviours I did pick up though but stopped when I saw the hurt looks on my own children's faces

But there is something I truly believe:

If you can be accountable and apologise while truly meaning it, you are unlikely to be an abusive narcissist at least...

I've never seen a genuine apology and change in behaviour from a narcissist

There is always an if or a but

Onward the only way to 'win' with a narcissist, is to stop playing. In my experience a narcissists tried and tested technique is to accuse someone else of doing what they are doing themselves.

If your son is aware that you were raised by a narc then accusing you of being one, is almost certainly going to cause you to question yourself, so don't. I agree with Doodledog, don't worry about inheriting narcissism.

Your son is projecting his own failings onto you. It's what they do.

Excellent and informative posts Doodledog.

I do understand. It's not about winning, but it would be nice to break even sometimes ?.

'My' narc wasn't a relative, so I could walk away, difficult though it was to do so, but it's not so easy when it's a parent. I wish you well.

(I hesitate to advise, as I am 100% unqualified, but if I were to suggest anything it would be not to worry about 'inheriting' narcissism, but to try to be happy with who you are, and accept that we all get it wrong sometimes, however we were brought up.)

(Not that I want to "win", you understand, but I cannot ever be treated well by anyone with such severe amounts of hatred. He has disguised it quite well at times when it benefitted him to do so, but ultimately the hatred is obvious now and I cannot continue with this soul destroying relationshit)

I don't know either Doodledog, but it's been emotionally draining and unproductive having anything to do with him, sadly.

He gaslights but accuses me of what he himself is doing. I can't be bothered to tell him this because he will not see it and I cannot win, not EVER. I cannot keep putting effort into this relationshit.

OnwardandUpward

PS I probably do have narc tendencies as a result of being brought up by a narc... I think many people can have those without being full blown narc?

I don't know OAU. I'm not a psychologist, but I would guess that people could learn narcissistic behaviour patterns but not be a narcissist. We all hear our mothers' voice coming out of our mouths at times, whether she was a narc or not - it's what we learn. It stands to reason that children of narcissists will do it too. A true narcissist has different brain patterns, apparently, caused by something that happens when they are three or four, and those neural pathways are being formed. It's not the same as repeating unhealthy responses to things, which, as I say, is pretty normal.

FannyCornforth

I was very good friends and worked closely with a narcissist.
He was anything but boring unfortunately.
He followed the pattern that Doodledog explains; but other than that he was an unpredictable nightmare.
He gas lit me to a ridiculous degree.
He was having affairs with university students on placement, and his wife was a friend and colleague too.
His wife was on MAT leave.
I had to have sick leave due to stress.

Yes, the pattern is predictable, but the behaviour isn't. It varies according to the situation and also the person. Narcissists are people, not robots, and are not all the same personality.

Your colleague sounds like a nightmare, Fanny. The fallout zone around narcissists can be huge - they sow destruction wherever they go.

The gaslighting varies too, but again the patterns are the same. 'I didn't say that/you are twisting my words/your memory is terrible etc'.
They play the victim - 'I am a nice person and you are making me look bad/You always take things the wrong way/You know I hate it when you do that (or say this, or mention the other thing)/You made me do it.
They tell so many lies that even they can't remember the truth.
They get authority onside, and operate with a thinly-veiled threat that if you upset them there will be consequences.
They use 'flying monkeys' to back them up, whether innocently or otherwise.

It must be exhausting for them!

PS I probably do have narc tendencies as a result of being brought up by a narc... I think many people can have those without being full blown narc?

My son calls me a narcissist, but I am pretty sure its him. I know I have a narcissist parent and I know I married a narcissist (My son's Dad) If you have been abused by a narcissist as a child you're more likely to fall in a relationship with one because it feels familiar.... Fortunately I got out of that relationship.

I find it puzzling how my son can label me a narc when I blatantly am not (But I do wonder if he knows he is and is deliberately trying to project?). I think narcs are boring, but they try to make them selves interesting by creating mystery and intrigue to get other people to chase them, at least that's what my son was doing- and I have stopped chasing for scraps. It's cruel and no one deserves scraps.

If he really thinks I'm the narcissist why hasn't HE gone NC? Instead he baits and sends abuse....I'm definitely Bored!

Maternity leave; not Multi Academy Trust leave

I was very good friends and worked closely with a narcissist.
He was anything but boring unfortunately.
He followed the pattern that Doodledog explains; but other than that he was an unpredictable nightmare.
He gas lit me to a ridiculous degree.
He was having affairs with university students on placement, and his wife was a friend and colleague too.
His wife was on MAT leave.
I had to have sick leave due to stress.

I agree Allsorts. It’s not about being boring, but the way in which they follow patterns of behaviour is uncanny.

Love bombing (or idolisation) is the dangerous bit as it is very difficult to reject someone being nice to you. They mirror your behaviour by finding out what makes you ‘tick’ and seeming to be a soulmate. Obviously the way this manifests depends on the nature of the relationship - it can be a partner who adores you and wants the life that you do, a friend who understands you like nobody else, a colleague who relies on you above all others etc, but they make you feel needed and loved.

Then they move to enmeshment where they wrap your lives together so that it is only the two of you working on a project, or you lose touch with other friends and family - the crucial thing is that you start to need them instead of their needing you. It can take many different forms, and is gradual but persistent.

Then the devalue stage when you accidentally say or do something that knocks you off your pedestal. You might never know what it was but maybe you can’t do something they want you to, or don’t praise them enough for something they did, but you never go back to where you were in their idolisation stage. They triangulate by bringing in other people- ‘he never does that’ ‘I saw X the other day and s/he suggested we work together on ‘your’ project’ ‘ Y said I should do (a thing you suggested but was rejected) and it’s a great idea’, Z was saying how you look tired/ill/overweight. Maybe you need to go on a diet/stop letting yourself go?’ Again it could be all sorts of different scenarios but the impact is the same - you are being told that you are not important and/or that someone else is talking about you.

Finally the discard, which comes after they have found someone else to do whatever you were doing for them. Best friend, lover, trusted colleague, favourite child - different roles but the same devastation as the enmeshment has meant you have fewer places to turn.

This cycle goes on repeat / they might ‘hoover’ you back with more live-bombing but the devaluation starts more quickly after the first time.

I don’t know if they do it on purpose - some psychologists say they are made that way by abusive parents - but it doesn’t matter really. They do the same things in different ways, and lie, gaslight and triangulate as they go. Some are manipulative, others have explosive tempers (some both), but whatever happens is someone else’s fault and they believe that they are victims, and not recognised for the powerful/kindly/brilliant people they are.

It’s not that they are boring - some are very entertaining, and great company and others not. Some are very successful and others just think they are. They come in all shapes and sizes. What they are though, is dangerous.

I think boring not the correct term for a narcisstic person, more predictable. Once your eyes are open to that, you get to choose. Like DSL, walk away, if you do, no constant looking back finding reasons, because you never will, never find peace, more not let the past determine your now and future. I've had so much happen to me which I won't go into to and in a situation that I can't ever change because I can't walk away. I do not kept it determine who I am as I can't change other people, bu I won't be their victim.

Wyllow it makes me a tiny bit uncomfortable so I try to clarify that not all narcissists are bad people or abusive.

I follow 2 who are extremely clued up and explain a lot about abuse techniques etc and they have both had therapy to overcome their issues.

But when we talk about abusive narcissists we'll, the clues are often seen in the symptoms caused to their victims.

That's what generally leads people who have come out of abusive situations to the right information and help.