Friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life.

ToeToe so hard for you. The eggshells can be miserable! Expecting nothing means one isn't disappointed when one gets nothing but equally creates a conundrum when one does get something! It's confusing and exhausting!

I think Smileless suggestion is good because you can see how the land lies when she takes you for the procedure and then make a decision about accepting any help afterwards or not, depending on how things go. Yogin is right too, don't pass up the opportunity, it might work but do tread very carefully and take care of yourself and your wellbeing first and foremost

Hi Toe Toe.

I'm glad that you have decided to accept the olive branch and I wish you will. I think you have done the right thing, I agree you will need to tread warily but at least you will be able to slit any warning signs, but you have got over the worst.

I had similar issues to you last year......

I completely backed off (using what I call my red rope policy) and waited to see what happened. Eventually it paid off and my son offered an olive branch which I accepted, with grace, dignity and charm,

My thoughts are........everyone deserves a second chance, but there won't be a third. I haven't voiced tgat to my son, but he knows me well enough to know I mean business. He knows he's lucky I took him back and I doubt very much he will risk it again. I believe my son is genuinely contrite and full of remorse, I haven't had an apology and I wont push for one,

I know I might sound a bit controversial here but I disagree with your sister. I did not push for explanations or try to "thrash things out". I don't think post mortems in these cases are all that helpful. I think it's better to let sleeping dogs lie.

Your daughter made the first move, and that takes guts. Without saying a word, she has admitted she was wrong and has demonstrated a willingness to make amends. If I were you I would take a keep of faith and accept her back with open arms,

I know that for some people that wouldn't be enough, they would insist on apologies and explanations. Maybe one day she will open up to you and you will get a fulsome apology and a full explanation of what went wrong but I think it's perhaps a bit too soon. The reconciliation is in its early stages and probably quite fragile so maybe better not to push too hard.

I can appreciate you want answers but if I were you I would just take her attempts at reengaging at face value. Maybe just give her the benefit of the doubt for now and adopt a wait and see approach, that's what I have done,

I think we sometimes need to ask ourselves......"Do I want to be happy or do I need to be right".

For myself I have deliberately chosen happiness, re-engaging with my son and being able to have a proper relationship with my grandchildren.

I know not everyone shares my view, maybe some people might find me foolish. I do agree wholeheartedly that once our trust has been betrayed then it's very difficult to completely relax and let go and trust again. I think I will never be able to fully relax with my son ever again, I will always be guarded and careful. The happy go lucky relationship we had is gone and I doubt very much that it will ever be quite the same again. It will do. It is what it is. It's warm and cordial. I am still quite reserved and careful (especially with DIL). I play the long game and keep my cards close to my chest.

I was speaking to a friend yesterday who had been estranged from her daughter for 3 years and then suddenly, out of the blue, her daughter asked for a meeting, I asked my friend if they had "thrashed things out" and she said no. She felt, like I do, that it might have been counter productive to insist on a post mortem. Like me she just accepted her Daughter back into the fold and left it that.

Anyway that's my take.

Only you can decide what's best for you but I would advise you not to be too hasty, just take things slowly, protect your self but try to find it in your heart to forgive. (But not forget, stay on your guard). If that's not possible then just accept the olive branch and wait and see.

Bearing a grudge serves no real purpose. Holding on to the hurt and pain was making me ill so I decided to let it go. I am nearly 72 and I chose not to waste my time with recriminations and playing the blame game.

My mantra is......

"Life is short.......take the trip, buy the shoes, eat the cake and above all, don't let arguments fester and destroy what time I have left".

Bloody predictive text. 😂

"Leap of faith". Not "keep".

Madgran and Derbyshire lass thankyou both, such lovely wisdom and common sense 💕

I am really struggling with memory and have been a while and find I'm unable to retain what I've seen or heard and other things that would normally stay in my mind and in a way am thankful because I'm starting to lose the impact of what was actually said and done . As I say maybe for the best to lose that memory to move forward .

Thankyou all

ToeToe, the same happened to me, after a period of my d estranging herself, I received a text asking me out with my gc for lunch, I went never bought up the horrible things she had said and done, over the months a pattern developed, blowing hot and cold, being critical and judgemental on small things, I felt I was walking on eggshells. Then I asked her to explain why she did those things, she couldn't name a specific I did wrong but that I got on her nerves. She took away all my self worth, I told her I couldn't live as I was as knew we didn’t connect any more. The last estrangement has lasted a long time, I can’t be precise, I’ don’t wait for the phone to ring anymore, I won’t go through it again. I feel if someone treats you badly you talk it out or the same things will happen, if you don’t address the issue it will not be resolved. In my case it resulted with her completely severing contact but it would have happened anyway. I can never forget how she made me feel, how she saw me upset and it didn’t bother her, that she knew how much she meant to me and how much it would hurt, she still did it, she would not have known if I was alive or dead. It has taken a big toll on my health and well being, I will never be as I used to be, inside this sadness pops up, I love her but not what she’s become, however it’s better than being on edge waiting for something to happen. I am the sort if person who needs to know why.
I hope with your d it was a one off.

Sorry for you Allsorts its awful .

No this isn't a one off , I've had some very unpleasant experiences with my daughter over 17 years . I was afraid of losing my grandaughters and just became submissive. There were times I was ignored for months and the grandchildren not allowed contact, yet I had truly never caused any issues , only offered love and support . The last 18 months knocked me completely and I rarely had contact .

I feel for you and understand

Sorry Toe Toe, I didn't realise this was a long standing pattern of on/off estrangement and abuse. It does put a different perspective on the matter doesn't it.

Only you can know how much more you can and want to take from your daughter. I don't think I could take the level of punishment you have put up this last 17 years, you must be a very strong person.

As I said in my earlier post I think everyone deserves a second chance but, harsh as it sounds, I would not give my son a third chance.

Please proceed with caution and take care of yourself. 💐

Allsorts.......sending you ❤️💐.

Sorry, no idea about dog friendly beached onwards - Mr Hugs and I are both allergic to dogs and cats so no pets for us.

Goodness me, that must have been a bit of a shock Yogin. I'm glad you could help.

Oh, I have dreams like that sometimes Grandmabatty. It feels like a slap in the face when I wake up.

Well done on shortening those curtains smiles. I agree it's such a job. Glad the singing lessons are going well.

Lovely to see you again ToeToe. I agree you need to take it slowly if you allow the contact. DSL is the expert at the red velvet rope and perhaps an approach you could try. By all means let her come to you if you can face it, but don't let anyone walk all over you. You deserve better. But of course, it's easy to react instinctively and clam up because we don't want to lose someone. It's never easy when you're put on the spot. It's okay to hold back and take care of you while you see how things go.

I totally get your need to understand the reasons allsorts. It's awful when you just can't make sense of things.

A cold tiring day here, but at least the dodgy bathroom lights got replaced with ones that fit properly.

Yoga glad the calf was ok, but what a shame no cuddle and something walm after the ordeal it had had, they have feelings just as we do and must have been shaken. I definitely wouldn't be a farmer as I would earn nothing.
Toetoe, you are too any too fragile now as she's bought you down. Protect yourself,do what you feel confortable,with, it's about you not her.

Yogin, you did so well to keep the calf's nose above water ! I can imagine how heavy it must have been!

Smileless , glad your singing lesson went so well!

DSL you're right about that comment "Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy" Admittedly I used to always want the last word, but more recently when I stopped replying to my son I let him have the last word because it was more peaceful for me to step away from the chaos and pain he causes. I don't think he has any idea how much pain and suffering he causes because it's all about him ? Or maybe he does it to be cruel. Who knows? But, I am enjoying the peace and getting on with my life- all because I gave the gift of giving him the last word!

Allsorts I agree with you. So sorry you had to go through that cruelty. I know it only too well, as many of us do. If we allow someone to keep treating us bad it does not achieve anything. I feel for you ToeToe (great name, do you like Ballet?) Maybe Low contact might be better while you figure out things?

If anyone does know of dog friendly beaches in Norfolk it would be great as I love going to the beach but it's hard having a dog to find ones that let you visit in the summer months.

QuoteAllsorts Thu 19-Jan-23 17:53:51

Such a sad post Allsorts I do myself feel afraid of a reconciliation with my estD, I just couldn't go through what she put me through again, it was beyond a nightmare, so cruel, with me on the very edge of suicide. I can't envisage her ever telling me 'Why'.

Allsorts

I feel the same Allsorts; I'm also someone who needs to know why. I just couldn't start seeing our ES son again if the past wasn't discussed, if there was no truthful explanation and no apology.

After 10 years it would be like starting all over again and without talking things over for me, the fear that it would happen again would be too great.

A history of on/off estrangement is concerning ToeToe; all the more reason to have those boundaries in place and maybe at some point consider making it clear that if estrangement happens again, that will be it. This is the last time you're prepared to attempt to rebuild the relationship.

It's something we never thought we'd experience isn't it Yogin, the thought of reconciliation filling us with fear. We all know on this thread what an uphill struggle it was to move on with our lives after we'd been estranged.

It took us to the brink, and every ounce of strength and determination not to give in. I know that we couldn't do it again, it would finally destroy us so is a risk that I honestly believe I could never take.

For me, it isn't a question of being right or being happy. If he were to be honest, and there were things we needed to apologise for we would, but there's nothing that justifies the way we've been treated.

Sometimes not reconciling is the right thing and happiness its reward.

everyone deserves a second chance yes DSL but for me, that depends on how it's approached. Your son realised how much you'd been hurt but without that realisation and culpability, there's a risk that that second chance may be their chance to hurt you all over again.

Smileless2012

I feel the same Allsorts; I'm also someone who needs to know why. I just couldn't start seeing our ES son again if the past wasn't discussed, if there was no truthful explanation and no apology.

After 10 years it would be like starting all over again and without talking things over for me, the fear that it would happen again would be too great.

A history of on/off estrangement is concerning ToeToe; all the more reason to have those boundaries in place and maybe at some point consider making it clear that if estrangement happens again, that will be it. This is the last time you're prepared to attempt to rebuild the relationship.

It's something we never thought we'd experience isn't it Yogin, the thought of reconciliation filling us with fear. We all know on this thread what an uphill struggle it was to move on with our lives after we'd been estranged.

It took us to the brink, and every ounce of strength and determination not to give in. I know that we couldn't do it again, it would finally destroy us so is a risk that I honestly believe I could never take.

For me, it isn't a question of being right or being happy. If he were to be honest, and there were things we needed to apologise for we would, but there's nothing that justifies the way we've been treated.

Sometimes not reconciling is the right thing and happiness its reward.

everyone deserves a second chance yes DSL but for me, that depends on how it's approached. Your son realised how much you'd been hurt but without that realisation and culpability, there's a risk that that second chance may be their chance to hurt you all over again.

Like you say Smileless without understanding the why it could happen again- and for me, it did. I never asked why because I was so glad to have them back, but I was wrong.

It's been hard to move on so many times, but I've given so many chances (while ES has never explained or been sorry) This final time when I just stopped replying was hard, but it is getting easier with time.

As I've said to him many times, relationships take two. Not one person being cruel and the other person taking it- but two people full of respect and love. Or nothing.

two people full of respect and love oh yes Onward, how can a relationship work otherwise? The answer is, it can't.

Yes Smileless I feel that after so long it would be nigh on impossible to reconnect, to forget all that agony and pain, how could I ever trust her, I wouldn’t, I really couldn't risk it. For me it’s got to be nearly 20 years since the cracks appeared, with estrangement patterns over 10 years, I don’t have anything in common with her anymore. She has shown she has no regard for me. Do wish I hadn’t tried so long, that I had faced facts, but I didn’t so can’t go back, get those wasted years back. I am so pleased this forum is here as you get to realise you are not alone. There is support as we understand and it’s more common than people realise.I think there’s a good chance of reconnection after a one off estrangement of perhaps up to three years, if you talk it through and both want reconciliation, after that they have shown you that they don’t love or need you in their lives.

Agree with all everyone has written - estrangement took us to the brink, and it’s been really hard to rebuild. We often discuss what if EC came back in to our life….and conclude it would be a nightmare, unless they had drastically changed. We’re older now and less resilient, so need to be even more careful to stay in a good place.

Don't ever regret trying so hard for so long Allsorts.

I think you're right that there's a better chance of reconciliation if the estrangement's a one off, and it hasn't dragged on for years, if of course both sides are willing and prepared to talk through what's happened.

Actions as we all know speak louder than words, and 'I love you' is meaningless when actions are saying the exact opposite.

We're older now and less resilient exactly Spring. It's taken so many of us so long to get to our good place, it needs protecting.

We discuss it too, although not a often as we used too and our conclusion is we're better off without the drama, egg shell walking and emotional blackmail which would undoubtedly ensue.

QuoteSmileless2012 Fri 20-Jan-23 12:22:27

With us Smiles we both know it was our estAC H/W that caused the estrangement, but also acknowledging the fact that our Est. didn't have to follow, could have stopped it all and could clearly see the pain and hurt it caused their once beloved mother & in your case, father. So, they were brainwashed, could they therefore give this as their answer to 'why' and that be enough?

I don't know Yogin, I suppose it should be for the estrangement but what about the lies?

ES lied to his brother and at one point we really thought we were going to lose him too. Was that necessary and as a result of him being brainwashed?

What do you think? It would be interesting to know what others think too. A good question Yogin and I think I'll be pondering on it .

Smileless2012

^two people full of respect and love^ oh yes Onward, how can a relationship work otherwise? The answer is, it can't.

Yes, I just stopped being his punching bag for everything that's wrong in his life. He won't miss me, he'll just get a new punchbag. He has never taken responsibility for anything in his life, it has always been " my fault" or someone else's fault.

DiL (for all her niceness to me) likely has her own agenda. I do not see her putting up with being a house slave forever. I also don't see her putting up with GC being denied an education or them having no freedom to mix with friends or family. If she has got any sense she will have got her family to help her by now as she told me there were problems with his coercive behaviour already a few years ago. This, I think is why he does not want her talking to family. Even when my other son, (his brother) visited him last, he was not allowed to mix with his nephews and sister in law...

Smileless that happened to us too for a brief time our son got irritable with us and we knew why. We were sad, but said nothing, trusting he would come through it on his own. It didn't take long for him to see through it. Glad your son did too!

At least he cannot blame us for any losses that occur when we are not on the scene. He has lost his punchbag (s).

Hope you all have a lovely weekend

Interesting question Yoga. If your d was with a controlling, abusive man, possibly frightened of him, the time might come when for the sake of her child, she plucks up the courage to leave, I would do everything in my power to welcome her and get her life on track. Some peope suffer terribly at the hands of coercive control and can't see a way out, it's just survival. It would be about them and not what I been out through. They would have to show that they mean no going back however. I would want the partner reported so that its on record. Some manipuative people start loving and generous and isolate their partner from everyone, they are evil, I would throw the key away on the bullies. Some women are as bad, making their partners life a misery, but if there are children how do you leave them with such a person, how do you keep the peace, you just wait until the children are old enough.

ToeToe sorry you are going through all this. Unlike DerbyshireLass I would want answers if my son ever decided he wanted me back in his life. I am not a forgive or forget person. But would give him a chance to explain himself if he didn't then I couldn't see any way to have a mother and son relationship . I have gone through what I would ask hundreds of times . If he did want to see me it would have to be at my home and before he set foot inside I would want my grandson's name and date of birth. If he didn't give me that then there would be no point going further. Since my son decided to dump me as his mom found out about my health problems. What really gets to me he knew I was waiting to have a bubble echo on my heart as the echocardiogram in 2020 showed a problem and he still went ahead with the estrangement. When I text him last year I was sending a letter that I knew what my neurological condition was along with a copy of my neurologists letter and how to get tested. He never even sent a text saying at least you know what's wrong mom. Or thank you for letting me know. At least he didn't send the letter back.

But I know he will never contact me as he will have to admit he lied and that my daughter in law lied also. I have thought for a long time they have turned into my in laws. But at least they had the guts to treat us like shit to our face. It hurts they both know what a bad mother , mother in law and grandmother is they knew my husband's mom . And my son knows all about how his granddad treated us.

My father in law before we got married told me I was defective and after we got married I was to fat and he would give me a pound ever pound I lost. Those are very mild compared to things they both said. Both my daughter and son have been on the receiving end of my mother in law's vicious tongue but they like their dad and me never gave up on her. Both my children don't remember my father in law as our daughter was 4 and son 8 months when he died in 1988. My mother in law out lived my husband by 11 years finally dieing aged 91 in 2015. My husband was 47 when he died so he had put up with his parents that long. It was 40 years for me when his mom finally died and it was me a person who hated every cell of her who sat by her bed side the last 2 days of her life none of her family and I did that for some I hated because I love my husband and I don't abandon family.

I have many faults but none of which my son has accused me of . He calls me vindictive and manipulative he should look in a mirror and look at his wife he will see what vindictive and manipulative looks like. Because that's not me. If my husband had lived none of this would have happened as he would never have put up with what I have . But I did because I only saw my child 3-4 times a year from 2006 until 2019 when I moved to live closer to them. I couldn't move until then as had both parents and mother in law dependant on me . My children understood why I couldn't move and supported my decision. Seems my moving closer to them didn't suit my son and daughter in law. Funny how from August 2019 until March 2020 it did suit my son as he came every week for lunch and playtime with his 2 eldest. Then in May I was labelled vindictive and manipulative. I live 40 mins away from them via car . Once I moved I was never invited to their home.

What has brought everything to the front of my mind is I saw my neurologist on Friday and he asked me if my family had gone for genetic blood testing . I knew my daughter and brother had asked their GPs about having it done but had to say I have no idea if my son had and there was no way for me to find out. But that I had sent him a copy of his letter along with how to go about getting tested. My neurologist already knew about the estrangement. But it's ironic the first time I saw him in January 2020 it was my son who took me and sat in with me during the appointment.Also it was my son who took me to St George's hospital London when I saw a professor there in either 2018 or 19 unless I look it up can't remember which year. Did have a loving caring son will never understand where he went or why.

Anyway back to my neurologist he is going to increase my Clonazepam and hopefully that will ease the stiffness in my limbs. And get my GP to let me have more than a months supply of the tablet I need when I have a pain flare. As I have to take extra one and it shortens the length of the flare. He did some manual tests as electronic tests don't show anything. My startle reflex was in overdrive and I didn't realise it had gotten worse with the stiffness. But like my daughter said yesterday I live a quiet life at home where as she would never notice having 2 lively boys and full days. My days are full but unless out nothing to set me off.

My neurologist said he hadn't heard back from Cardiff about further testing but will chase them up. He was going to speak to other consultant neurologists who have HPX patients as my type 3 within the variant I have got hasn't been described before. In other words I have agreed to be a guinea pig for anything they want to do. If it helps one person not have to wait 64 years before they find out what they where born with its worth any discomfort I may go through and anyway nothing can be worse than the tests I had in 1992 as by today's standards they where barbaric. But I didn't care I needed answers.

Had a lovely day yesterday went out to lunch with my daughter and grandson's. She had to lift my legs in and out of the car because of the stiffness. I got dragged a long by a 2 year old. My walking has slowed right down he thinks it's funny the way nannie walks. We went to a local garden centre plenty for the boys to explore and lovely food. When at a garden centre the eldest and I explore all the sheds but they where just building them but had put down all the bases so he counted how many there where going to be once built. They have lovely fish tanks with minute tropical fish to giant khoai carp.

I never have pried into the children's lives it's something my husband and me decide before we had them if they wanted to tell us things it was their choice. But did ask my daughter if she had had the genetic blood tests yesterday because my neurologist asked. She had tried to book them but kept being put on hold . She wants them not because she is worried she is a carrier but because it's so rare and if it helps with research she's all for it. I will contact my neurologists secretary tomorrow and see if he can get her an appointment to get it done.

Exercise class tomorrow hopefully my thighs won't hurt this week. Seeing my cardiologist on Tuesday. Hopefully if it's not frosty Wednesday go shopping . Blood tests and craft group Thursday. Another full week.

Checked my greenhouse yesterday every is still growing it was 0.5° in there outside it was -1 so all the insulation I put in is working.

I don't know why the other day a bible quote popped into my mind . I did read the Bible when in my teens that's what decided me to be an atheist . Probably not remembering it correctly. But it's when Jesus said forgive them father they know not what they do. That doesn't apply to our estranged children as they know exactly what they are doing.and how much it will hurt us. And on that note best end my ramble.

Enjoy your day and keep warm . 😊