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Estrangement

Friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life

(1001 Posts)
Smileless2012 Wed 26-Jul-23 10:56:25

I've been trying to think of something different to say in the OP for this new support thread but was reminded of the old adage 'if it aint broke, don't try to fix it'.

The longevity and success of the support thread speaks for itself, so we just need to keep doing what we do which is being there for one another and giving a warm welcome to anyone new who comes along.

Yoginimeisje Fri 01-Dec-23 11:21:18

Still feeling very lethargic today, did my class last night with a very husky voice! My son is booking another day off work as still unwell. I got 2 days off now, so hope I'm back to normal Sunday. Writing this listening to the new Beatles CD, I really like it and am sending it to my brother for Xmas.

Well, you've certainly gone up a stage with your opera singing Smiles well done. Poppy sounds so cute running around with her new Xmas toy, shouldn't that have been put under the tree for the 'Big day'? That's why I got my previous fur baby done, as I knew I wouldn't be able to give her babies away. Enjoy your Dickensian Christmas event that would be today in the snow, how lovely is that.

Whiff all those old Xmas films are so good to watch this time of year, staying in the warm of your home.

Phone ringing, e back to read more after.....

Yoginimeisje Fri 01-Dec-23 12:11:24

Sorry to read about your bad experience with your H daughter Flower It's very painful and each story is unique, so needs its own solutions. Stay on here with us and you'll get some good advice and support. Good luck.

Thanks everyone for your best wishes regarding my lurgy!

Spring20 Sat 02-Dec-23 21:36:59

Really hope you are feeling much better by the end of the weekend Yogin. Glad you can rest for a couple more days. Frosty here and did some Christmas shopping this morning. Will be a small gathering this year and tbh we’re struggling to look forward to it. Seems to be a lack of joy around this year….not sure if that’s the world situation, cost of living crisis, or general ill ease because of the estrangement which makes everything, esp family gatherings, more complex. I think we both feel it more keenly this time of year - as do many of us.
Sorry to hear of your situation Flower. I know is hard but is so important for your husband to have your support. Estrangement from a child rocks us to the core and can wholly undermine any self belief and esteem. It will get easier but the early stages are full of self questioning. You will eventually find life can settle down and be good again, although in a different way from how we imagined it.

Whiff Sun 03-Dec-23 07:10:23

FlowerGardender glad you found this wonderful group. But sad you have needed to.

Dreadful way you and your husband were treated by his daughter. Especially as you thought you where wanted and had travelled so far to see them. And not to let him hold his grandchildren was cruel. From what you wrote his daughter doesn't like you if he wasn't allowed to tell you anything. Does that mean you couldn't visit her both together?

When my first grandson was born I lived over 100 miles away think he was 2 weeks old when I first saw and held him. I stayed with my daughter and son in law. But my son fetched me. Remember we went into the city for lunch during my 4 day stay and in the department store my son let me push the buggy in it's pram setting. I hit a display cabinet and my daughter in law took it off me and was never allowed to push it again not even when their second son was born.

When my daughter and son in law had their first son I did exactly the same thing pushing the buggy pram . But my daughter said I am always doing that and never stopped me pushing either of her boys.

Because I lived so far away and only saw the family few times a year months apart for 13 years . I turned a blind eye to what happened at my son's and ignored my daughter in law's barbed remarks and her snide comments about my daughter. Hindsight is a wonderful thing now wish I hadn't put up with it. But I was just happy to see and spend time with them.

I am glad your husband has a good relationship with his other daughter. It must be very upsetting for her to see her dad and you treated so awfully by her sister.

Don't know if the sisters are close. My daughter and daughter in law never got on from when they first met in 2005. But my daughter never said any unkind remarks about her in my hearing until after the estrangement. The problem has always been my daughter in law is jealous of my daughter..I always saw that.

It was the same with my brother's second wife. She wasn't a nice person and my husband should say late but when alive he was never late in his life and I hate the term. But some people get offended if I put dead husband and anyway to me he is still my husband and I am still married and always will be.

But my brother's wife was family and treated as such . It was only after they finally separated for good . That I didn't treat her as family. Luckily my brother is married to a wonderful woman who is more like a sister than sister in law who I love very much and have adopted her dad as a second dad . Funny enough his name is the same as my dad.

Should say both my parents and husbands parents are dead.

Estrangement has long been a taboo subject and it's automatically the parents get the blame when in fact we are the innocent parties. And it's our adult child/children or grandchildren who are to blame.

Smiles and Yogin have kept this thread going for over 10 years hope I got that right . So it shows how it is still needed and helps people. I would have been lost without the support, understanding,kindness and most importantly of all friendship I have found here. Will the support here I sent my son a text months ago only the third in 3 years and had abuse back so I am know done . The only person hurting was me but no more I will not let him hurt me anymore. Estrangement has been called a living grief but the grief I feel for my life far out ways the way I feel about my son and the loss of my 3 grandson's. I don't even know the name of their youngest or date of birth. But I will always love my son but the son I knew who was kind ,caring and loving for 32 years. But not who he is now I have no idea who he is. I miss my grandson's very much especially as the oldest 2 loved being with me. If my son wants me he knows where I am but things would be on my terms. But I don't expect to see him again but may be my grandsons will find me . But they are only 7,5 and 3.

I am lucky I have brilliant relationship with my daughter and son in law and 2 grandson's. My son in law after my sons emails to me and his sister giving us the boot as his family. Said he knew something was wrong for years but wouldn't say anything as it would have hurt me. And that sums up the difference between the 2 couples.

My son has dumped all our side of the family . My brother is hurt and wanted to go round and sort him out and in his words that bitch of his wife. But I said no . He's to stay out of it.

FG write whatever you feel here and know you will never be judged or blamed Smiles and other long termers here have made this a safe place to be. And yes I do ramble on.

Whiff Sun 03-Dec-23 07:36:57

Now read this page.

Yogin I hope you and your son are well on the road to recovery. This freezing weather just makes any illness feel worse. And having flu makes your limbs hurt without the cold temperatures as well.

Spring I have always loved Christmas as my family and husband it was their favourite time of year. I have always had my tree up and decs out even after my husband died. Glad to say my best friend who's husband died a year ago is putting her tree and the decorations up this year . She didn't last year and it made her feel worse and the house empty. As I told each ornament is a memory of them buying them together and the joy they gave them .

Yesterday my daughter and grandsons came for lunch and the boys decorated my tree as usual. My daughter started a tradition once I moved her after the tree is done the boys sit on the armchair by it and she takes a pic. The first one the youngest was only less than a month old. Yesterday there was a tusell as the youngest didn't want his brother by him but ended up with a lovely photo. They had lunch with me and then we went to see Santa another tradition my daughter has set to include me as my son in law is usually at the football match . When she booked my son in law's team where playing yesterday but they changed it to today 2 weeks ago . I said I wouldn't go so he could . With the boys seats the car can only take 4 . But she said no it's our tradition.

I know how lucky I am to have such a wonderful daughter and her family.

Spring all my Christmas presents where wrapped beginning of November and cards written . Posted off the cards and presents on Thursday but only second class this year because of the cost. Of 4 of the parcels one got it Friday and the other 3 where delivered yesterday. Glad I didn't pay for first class as they got there so quickly and to different parts of the country.

Hope the frost lifts so I can put my stake lights in my front garden but the ground has been frozen solid for days.
Good news my dehumidifiers are doing there job and no condensation this year and therefore no black mould. 😊

Keep warm everyone and be very careful going out no broken bones.

Spring20 Sun 03-Dec-23 15:51:04

Lovely posts Whiff - thanks for sharing the magic of Christmas with us!

Allsorts Mon 04-Dec-23 06:50:02

Christmas is wonderful especially if you have a close relationship and grandchildren. I have been to a few Christmas reunions but feel awkward, I don’t know how else to put it. I realise what a mess I’ve made.My dil who I used to be so close to has distanced herself, my son says she’s her own family to worry about. No point saying anything, but I feel I’ve lost them both if you don’t speak or see each other. That’s why I’ve hung back on moving I think. The trouble is you can’t change yourself to suit anyone.

Whiff Mon 04-Dec-23 07:20:42

Allsorts you shouldn't have to change who you are for anyone. You are a brilliant mom and grandmother who has given so much love to your family . Worked so hard when you were on your own so your children had all the advantages you could give them. What they have done is their choice you did nothing wrong . Never blame yourself. You didn't decide you wanted nothing to do with your daughter she decided that's what she wanted.

Our adult children make the choice they don't want us. We didn't decide we didn't want them. But we are made out to be the villains when in fact we are the victims. We put up with what our children dished out for years never saying anything . And after all that they decide they don't want us.

They think they are perfect parents perfect human beings they are sadly mistaken. And one day they will realise that or some may have already I hope they are ashamed of their behaviour but lack the courage to admit they are wrong.

I never thought my own son could be cruel and cowardly but turns out he is . He should be ashamed of himself and I hope he is . But I am done letting what he did hurt me . It's my grandson's I feel sorry for they are missing out on such a lot.

I have been painted by my daughter in law as this evil woman on Reddit wonder if all that support her and said vile things about me would have sympathy for her if they knew she was talking about her disabled mother in law.

Allsorts never change who you are you are a wonderful woman and have so much love for your family . Even if it's not returned. 🌹

Allsorts Tue 05-Dec-23 07:19:59

How are you and your husban Flower gardener? . It is very cruel the way you have been treated, we all do our best for our children, that didn't mean in hindsight we find rverything exactly right. But will they, no one is are not perfect. Think the balls in her court, from my Iwn eperience trying to put something right when you don't know what it is, is pointless, I tried for years. You have each other and family, share all that love you both have, with them. One thing I have learnt is you never forget how people make you feel and they don't change what they are.
Smileless, you are indeed a lucky lady, your furry family sound great, there is a new show on TV called Furry Friends' starting this week, which I will be watching.
Hope you and your son have have recovered from flue Yoga, it really knocks you if your feet.
I saw pictures of King Charoes yesterday, looking so sad, fir all he has, Harry has broken his heart and that feeling he has is what we all have, quite how they can reconcile after all the public humiliation I don't know.

Yoginimeisje Tue 05-Dec-23 08:54:35

Yes Allsorts poor King Charles with all he has, as you say, is in the same boat as all of us on here, estranged from his AC&GC, very sad at this time of year. Can't believe it's been 11 Xmases for me!

Thank you Spring feeling better today, but still have cough and have very low energy, my son is still off work.

Meeting my sister today at Bluewater shopping centre, only been there once before, many years back, hope my satnav gets me there and back safely.

Smileless2012 Tue 05-Dec-23 11:30:49

Poor Charles. Of course we know what it's like and that it's especially difficult at this time of the year. Even having your other AC and GC around wont make the loss any easier.

TBH reconciliation just doesn't look possible now Allsortssad. Maybe for father and son but this in't just about them is it. There's William and Kate to consider and I can't see William wanting anything to do with either of them, if only because of the relentless attacks on his wife.

It's impossible to try and make things right when you don't know what the problems are, and just as impossible when there's no truth in the things you've been accused of.

11 Christmases for you and us Yoginshock an this will be our 8th Christmas here. It's going to be lovely having our friends to stay instead of it just being the two of us and our dogs of course.

I sometimes can't get my head around the horrible hand life's dealt us. Estranged from youngest son and only GC and DS so far away. This is not the time of year to be dwelling on it of course, but inevitably I am.

Glad you're feeling better today Yogin. Enjoy your shopping trip and don't worry, I'm sure your satnav wont let you down.

Be careful sorting out your stake lights Whiff.

We're going out for lunch and some Christmas bits an pieces today. The memorial service is this evening and I'm hoping K will get some comfort from it as she sounded very down yesterday.

Singing lesson went well this morning but I was a bit miffed as 5 minutes before my lesson ended, the next student arrived and just walked in. V thought my lesson time was up but I told her I had another 5 minutes. It's £25 an hour so I want my monies worth.

She got me to go through the operatic piece once more so I did so, to an audience of one. I wasn't at all nervous an he complemented me when I'd finished!!!

Enjoy the rest of your day everyone. Stay safe and keep warm.

Whiff Tue 05-Dec-23 12:48:55

Yogin glad you are feeling better sorry about your son. Driving his tanker he needs his wits about him as there are so many idiots who don't realised have much space tankers and HGVs need to stop. Been years since I went to Bluewater before my husband died . It was a long drive but it was lovely and a good use of an old quarry.

King Charles never has a minutes peace from Harry and Meghan they keep twisting the knife in. And he can't fight back we all know how that feels. But if he did it would be splashed all over the news .

Smiles glad you got your monies worth. And it was nice to be complemented on your singing by a stranger. The memorial service won't be as hard as the funeral. It's not so much about grief like a funeral but remembering the life of the person you loved and the happy times you had. Also how much poorer you life would have been if you hadn't known them.

I just had to chuckle to myself . I have been posting on the food forum . Posted a gingerbread recipe on the gingerbread/ Parkin thread and got a bit carried away and posted other recipes all with my short cuts . A thread appear asking where the cheese rocks recipe was yep one of mine. Had someone PM me about my cheese sauce recipe she tried it and was surprised it worked. Told her knit and natter group who where horrified but tried it and they like it. Because I can't do something's I find short cuts so I can. But it did make me laugh how much air time it's gotten.

The library staff have been looking after our box which has tea ,coffee etc in as someone was stealing our sugar and used all our coffee. So last week I said I would make them a cake what would they like. They decided black forest gateau . What surprised me they didn't know what Kirsch was. And one of the librarians is in his 50's. But it will be my way as my piping days are over and can't do chocolate shards . So it with be topped with chocolate gauche. Making the sponge today as need it to soak up some Kirsch before assembling tomorrow and setting ready for Thursday. Plus baking for my craft group.

It rained yesterday so was able to push my stake stars into the grind more. Set the timer wrong Sunday and they stayed on all night. But did it right yesterday they only stayed on the 6 hours and will switch themselves on this evening.

Suns just come out here. Have a good day whatever you are doing.

Spring20 Tue 05-Dec-23 22:44:27

Christmas decorations are up and watched ‘Nativity 1’ on catch up - such a lovely film. Have been feeling more settled about Christmas but this afternoon had a sense of dread that more ‘bad news’ was about to hit us. Wondered if another gc might have been born that we know nothing about. I know this is crazy/unreasonable but is another aspect of estrangement…….being alert for more heartbreak. Maybe is simply that Christmas brings it all into focus more sharply. I don’t think there are happy endings with estrangement.

Yoginimeisje Wed 06-Dec-23 09:50:02

Hope all goes well with the memorial services Smiles
Got to Bluewater ok but had to pull over as I'd forgotten to put the 'roaming data' on, so halfway there my satnav went off shock We had a nice lunch and a little look round all the lovely shops.

Whiff my son tells me about all the idiots on the roads with no clue to the heavy large tanker he drives needing extra care and attention to drive safely!

Spring I have my tree up, will put our outside lights up at the weekend, don't put anything like the amount I used to up now, but all looking festival.

Whiff Thu 07-Dec-23 07:53:33

Spring estrangement is hideous. I imagine the grandson I have never seen or know his name looks like his brother's. Because all my 5 grandson's are close in age . I see what my daughters boys do so imagine my other grandsons do the same.

But I am lucky I did get to know my son's 2 eldest for a while and see my daughter her 2 boys every week.

Think the problem is with Christmas is TV adverts ram happy families down out throats . But I think of all the people who have no one at all . Who will be spending Christmas on their own like everyday. Also people who still live on the street as places fill up so not everyone gets a warm bed and hot meal.

So many people will die again this winter because of being frightened to put the heating on . Getting flu people forget how many that kills every year ,plus pneumonia and of course the new strains of Covid . And still people don't have the vaccines. Some can't because of adverse reaction or health problems. Others because the are members of the anti vaccines brigade.

Have to go boiler man just come

Spring20 Thu 07-Dec-23 13:17:05

Wise words Whiff - good to look away from ourselves and out towards others. To be thankful for what we have, and what we can share. Thank you.
Hope the memorial service wasn’t too difficult Smiles, and there were happy memories to dwell on. Enjoy your decorations Yogin - must admit a few twinkly lights cheer up the grey days!

Smileless2012 Fri 08-Dec-23 09:13:30

Morning everyone, hope you're all OK and it's finally stopped raining where you are.

The memorial service was lovely. A combination of carols and readings, very moving and a mixture of tears and smiles as we thought of our lovely S.

We put up our Christmas decorations on Wednesday, just the amazingly bright stag to assemble over the weekend. The house looks lovely and I'm always pleased we make the effort, despite this being the hardest time of the year.

I do that too Whiff, think of those who have no one and spend the day alone. Those who can't keep warm and those who don't have a decent home, or a home at all.

The Christmas ads are tiresome, all showing happy families and enough food to feed an entire street. That said I do love the Aldi ad. It always makes me smile and this year's is particularly good.

Thinking of adverse reactions to vaccines, Mr. S. had his shingles jab on Tuesday and has been feeling pretty lousy ever since with aching muscles. He's due for another in a few months time and is thinking of not bothering, but I remember when my mum got shingles and was in terrible pain, unable to wear anything other than a light cotton night dress as it was on the majority of her body.

Hope you got your boiler sorted Whiff, was there a problem or were you having it serviced?

Glad you're feeling better Yogin and enjoyed your day out. The Christmas lights certainly cheer up the grey days Spring and we've had too many of those lately, but it has been a bit milder which is a relief after that really cold weather.

Whiff Fri 08-Dec-23 12:24:43

Spring thank you. We have to look after ourselves to retain our independence. Made 15lb lemon marmalade this morning takes me 2 days but I make it my way. But not had anyone refuse it yet!

Smiles glad you enjoyed the memorial service . Like I said funerals are sad but the memorial service is to remember your loved ones a mix of happy and few tears. A time when you remember all the silly things they did and all the kind things they did and of course the love they gave and the love they received.

I love it when the tree is up and decorated. The boys did it, normally I don't move anything but my daughter pointed out the little one had put 8 things on one branch.

I have 16 stake stars along my boarder at the front. On a timer . So when I got home soaked from craft group they where a welcome sight. Glad my boiler got fixed my radiators have never been so hot especially my bedroom.

If I have already said this sorry got a foggy brain today. Asked the librarians last week what sort of cake they like. They look after our box with tea etc in as someone stole our sugar and coffee. So as a thank you from the craft group I made the black forest gateau but my way. Had all the elements chocolate sponge kirsch brushed on . Black cherry jam brought tried it to sweet but I will use it up in my porridge. Double cream black cherries soaked in kirsch but I topped it with chocolate ganache as I can't pipe anymore. So it dripped down the side. Gave it to them said I don't do pretty but tasty and would cut into 12 and keep in the fridge for a few days. When craft was over they had all had some ,some 2 slices and said it wouldn't last the day out. Glad I made it

We have our craft party on Thursday before Christmas. And exchange secret Santa. Will make some savoury and sweet goodies.

My GP has let me have the pneumonia jab which I have on the 20th but won't let me have the shingles even thought I have nerve pain. Phoned my neurologists secretary to see if he can send a letter asking my GP to let me have it. But said I understood if he couldn't as they all have to follow guidelines.

I can have it if I pay £240 each for 2 jab ones or £400 for single jab one 😱.

Hope Mr S has the second one . My son had shingles in his early 20's and was very ill and he said the pain was awful.

One of my craft friends was given it at her GP's when she had the pneumonia one. She's not 65 until next year but the nurse asked if she wanted it so she had it. Felt rough for a couple of days.

Yogin glad you are feeling better and hope your son is on the mend.

Whiff Sat 09-Dec-23 17:33:35

My sister in law made these for a stall she is doing for 2 days with her friend they have also made some crochet things. I brought the 2 owls. She was going to let me have it but I said no I would pay. I paid double what she asked plus p&p as I know how much work went into it and how much things sell for on Etsy. I brought a box frame to keep it dust free. It's on my mantle piece. I love owls . Hope these make you smile if you are feeling down. My sister in law has MS.

Allsorts Sun 10-Dec-23 09:18:25

Smileless I had just one jab for shingles, I don't know why or how but within a week I developed allergies and all year round hay fever. I went to the doctor first big rash went to doctor who said shingles, I told him I'd recently had the vaccine. He said it was just coincidence. Was prescribed cream. Don't know anyone who had my reaction.
Got most of my presents wrapped, finding my older grandchildren prefer money now but I still get presents as well. My son is impossible to buy for, says he's got everything he needs and there's nothing he wants. Went shopping yesterday for inspiration , but I seemed to be surrounded by couples, I thought that used to be me and I came home empty handed then I got upset about my daughter, more annoyed really. I decided to open chocolates I had bought a neighbour, which I now have to replace plus I've probably put on weight.🙄 I cheered up with Strictly and I'm a Celebrity.
Whiff. That is beautiful, such fine and intricate work, the little owls are so cute. I used to do a lot embroidery and tapestry but I can't manage sitting in one position too long now and my hands sieze up. Tried crochet find that more difficult than knitting.
Smileless your house sounds very festive I'm sure your Christmas with your friends will be great. I love Aldi ads the best, those little singing sprouts or whatever they are, my favourites. Kevin still working out his riddle. Cannot abide M and S one. Can't remember the others which says a lot.

Yoginimeisje Mon 11-Dec-23 09:13:50

Your s.i.l is very clever Whiff as are you with all your lovely baking, I'll bet all your craft friends enjoy it all.

Good to hear it all went off ok at S memorial service Smiles

It is unthinkable that there can be people sleeping on the streets without food or shelter, why can't they build or convert buildings into little bedsits, with kitchenettes & bathrooms for them. Illegal immigrants get put straight into accommodations with food and pocket money.

Still suffering from flu, into the third week now, son & D the same. We had to cancel our Xmas get together Sunday as f.i.l unwell with it too.

agnurse Mon 11-Dec-23 16:33:40

Yogin

One of the big issues is that it's not just about getting people INTO housing, it's about KEEPING them there.

When I was in nursing school, we learned that 1 in 3 homeless people is mentally ill. Many people living on the streets have severe mental illness and/or substance use disorders. Consequently simply providing a place to live isn't enough. You need to provide services for addressing their underlying issues, AND they have to WANT to seek treatment. (In my jurisdiction, unless someone is actually dangerous to themself or someone else, you can't commit them involuntarily.)

Smileless2012 Mon 11-Dec-23 17:55:02

Evening everyone. Sorry you're still feeling unwell Yogin flowers. I don't know how people manage to survive on the streets when it's so cold.

I agree about the M&S Christmas ad about doing only what you want to do but I do like the Dawn French fairy. Aldi's got the best ones this year (again) without a doubt and for me, the worse one is Tesco's.

Our carol concert yesterday was lovely. I was worried about it TBH as including the carols we sung with the audience, we sung 15!!! Wasn't sure if my voice would hold out as I'd sang with the church choir in the morning but it went well, and I think it's the best we've ever done.

Mr. S. said in his opinion it was smile. Just one more on Sunday and then we'll be done. I choked on a couple because they're so beautiful and singing them made me think of how our Christmas' used to besad.

Mince pies baked on Saturday; all cards written and delivered and posted; all presents bought and this afternoon we bought the rest of the food we want apart from the turkey so apart from wrapping, we're done.

Mr. S. just needs to get the stag set up on the roof terrace, we just need a dry day when he has the time to get it done. I'm so looking forward to our friends coming for Christmas as it's been a long time since it hasn't been just the two of us, well 4 if we include the dogs grin.

Whiff Wed 13-Dec-23 13:26:42

Yogin have you still got your cough? I just had a shock when I read whopping cough is back but they are calling it the 100 day cough.
There are over 1,000 people with it. I know that's not a vast amount but shopping cough is very contagious.

I know TB is on the rise and my daughter says the cars of meningitis is on the rise in uni's. Have to go cake ready and need to make mix for next one .

Smileless2012 Sat 16-Dec-23 09:17:57

Morning everyone.

Hope you're fully recovered now Yogin and your son too.

Foolishly thinking that all our water issues with this house were over (after 7 years!!!) we discovered that the toilet in the top floor shower room was leaking and surprise surprise, like all of the issues we've had was due to faulty workmanship, just like all the other issues we've had.

Mr. S. knelt in the sheepskin rug in the living room and said it was wet and initially thought one of the dogs had had an accident. He was soon reprimanded for making false allegations grin.

We looked up at the ceiling and to our horror saw a damp patch so Mr. S. went up to investigate, pulled back the lino and the floor boards were saturated. We've had so many problems that we have practically have the plumber on speed dial, so despite them being busy they came out the next day (Tuesday).

It had been leaking for a good few years due to a pipe not being properly inserted and had it not been for the patch on the living room ceiling and wet rug, we'd have been none the wiser.
Just thankful that no real damage was done and the floor should be dry enough tomorrow for Mr. S. to lay some new flooring.

Concert this evening with my singing teacher, the other teacher and a group of students then my choir's final carol concert tomorrow afternoon.

Hope you're all bearing up as this time of year always seems to make our estrangements that bit harder to cope with.

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