Friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life

@Smiles
It’s so hard isn’t it . I don’t want to be the one who sends him away but I have thought of the pitfalls of having a relationship solely with my son knowing I’m a grandmother who is denied contact for no reason other than spite . He’s gone as far as saying I’ll never see him as a baby - only time will tell if he carries this through . I certainly couldn’t and I don’t think I’ll ever be able to look my DIL in the face and feel anything but contempt for her . I will need to work on this if we reconcile .
This feels like a huge nightmare that I am caught up in . My dad’s beginning to lose patience with me as I can’t just make the situation right , something which is so unfair. I have taken a lot of verbal abuse from my son and shield the rest of the family from this .
I will always remember my son as the child who I adored , but sadly those feelings are beginning to vanish . He is having a profound effect on my health, I’m losing a lot of weight from not eating and feeling sick all the time . I tend to feel the mother / son relationship is going to come to an end because it can’t be sustained if I’m not allowed to go to his house or see his son . I assume he will pop round to my flat occasionally to visit me in between his other commitments. That’s not going to work .
You are right when you say I wouldn’t put up with abuse like this from a partner or husband. I would show him the door immediately. I don’t know why it’s different with my son . Maybe I’m afraid to lose a connection that was once so strong , loving and fun . I’m remembering him as he was before all this happened.
I suspect he might have narcissistic personality disorder, as he’s displaying all the traits plus has a lot of issues with things like being criticised or challenged. I can’t force him to get help though .
On top of this are my own personal worries which D doesn’t care about . Previously he would be horrified to think of me living alone with threats of violence and harassment. I’m trying my hardest to get out of the place , obviously without his help now . He promised he would always make sure I was ok housing- wise given he’s got a spare top floor, but that has obviously gone out of the window now . To think that we give our children unconditional love, and support whatever , I think I need to consider my next steps very carefully indeed . Xx

Unconditional love = loving someone in spite of what they say and/or do and yes, we love our children unconditionally but that doesn't necessarily mean we like what and who they've become, or be able to have them back in our lives.

I love our ES, life would be much easier I'm sure if I didn't but I don't like him and for me reconciliation is never going to be a realistic option even if he were to want it.

The trust has gone. The cruelty and the lies, which are nothing in comparison to what you've been subjected too, have left scars that will stay with me forever and I would be too afraid to have him back in my life in case he did it again.

He nearly destroyed us and I refuse to give him the opportunity to try to destroy us again.

We remember how our ES was too and maybe one day I'll find comfort in those memories but more than 11 years on, I still can't. It feels like a dream, that it never was real and the love we thought he had for us wasn't real either.

@Smiles

That’s such a sad post . I really do understand though because I love my son unconditionally but I really don’t like him any more . As for my DIL , well she ought to be ashamed of her role within this . I strongly believe this whole situation started because of selfishness. That selfishness turned into anger because of the miscommunication. Then things just got progressively worse. I am very mistrustful of my AS now . I have to be on my guard every time I speak with him . Yes , the lies they tell are outrageous and do have the potential to destroy you . I’m feeling that way and I haven’t been estranged- yet . Trust issues are an important factor too as you’ve pointed out . I have completely lost trust and I am still seeing him once a week. I get really nervous beforehand, during and after these meetings ( which are becoming very business - like ) . I feel the agenda but I don’t yet really understand it . Of course I was never destined to see my GS - they probably decided on this months ago . Although I very much want to see him and hold him I’ve been told I won’t see him as a baby . On the phone this morning, I broke down and sobbed . My son did actually shut his moth at this point - maybe a tiny bit of conscience remains who knows . He was insulting me then I broke down , didn’t say a word just sobbed . I think he was expecting me to start begging or something but no , just the sobbing . This , I think surprised him . I rang off after this . I fear he’s pushing me to breaking point . He knows it too . Before Xmas I collapsed in my flat , I was unconscious and my dad organised my AS to get the police to force entry . He thought I was dead . In fact I had pneumonia and kidney failure and was hospitalised for a couple of weeks. Funny that , because apparently the DIL rang her mother in a hysterical state too , thinking I’d killed myself . Then , after hospital the awfulness started again . For a short while my son actually worried about me and cared - I don’t know what has happened since . This period of total nastiness started on Xmas day after I’d been to their house for dinner . I can’t tell you what triggered it because we had a lovely time . My AS dropped me home and I’ve stayed with dad since ( apart from checking on my flat ) . I suppose some things can’t be explained. It’s things like this that I find so confusing, all the messing with my head is really not doing me any good .

Ladysusiei this will sound rude but what game are you playing ? You appreared a few days ago and people have tried to help you . Then I find you have started new threads and resurrective old threads there is no limit to how many forums you can be be on but including this one 6 threads on this forum since you appeared seems very odd.

Your sounded sincere and needed help but when challenge you attacked a dear friend of mine. What is your game ?

And yes I expect you to report me and get this deleted but I have already raised my concerns about your motives with GNHQ.

If you are sincere then stick with one thread if like I suspect you are an old poster with a new name one who liked to cause trouble where ever she could then stop.

Well said Whiff. That's why I backed out I got the feeling almost straight away.
You were bereaved so young, with poor health yourself, yet despite being heartbroken you sent your two children off to University to live their lives, then looked after elderly parents.
Estrangement is difficult and this forum is to help everyone along that difficult road we never expected to be on, but we get there knowing others feel as we do and understand. There is a good life after estrangement as gradually we start to value ourselves, mothers want to fix things and we take the blame for a lot, then we accept what we have. We had a life before children when we were on our own and we will again.

@Whiff

I previously had an old account for a completely different reason. I post here for extremely genuine reasons. I feel hurt that the suggestion is otherwise. I’ve not had 6 different threads though - that’s incorrect. I have found the advice on here invaluable. Since I lost my partner I have struggled immensely and I am finding it difficult to find my way through this new situation with my AS and DIL. I understand your life has been incredibly hard too and I’ve not shown any dishonesty or unkindness towards your situation. I thought that by coming on here for advice I might be able to make some sense of what’s going on . I hope you’re not suggesting that I’m being dishonest about what’s happening in my life here - sadly I’m not . Everything I post about is unfortunately going on . I’m waiting anxiously to see whether or not my son bothers to turn up this morning. I am going to try to discuss this impasse with him yet again . Maybe because your estrangement has been accepted by yourself because of the length of time which has passed , this is making a difference as to how you view me and my current difficulties. I’m at the desperation stage . Trying to get advice , I made a load of mistakes technically I mean , trying to log in yesterday leading to more panic . I can only tell you that my situation is completely true . It’s all getting on top of me now actually and I been trying to utilise other people’s experience if estrangement to try to salvage my life. Instead of jumping to conclusions here , couldn’t you have asked me first about what you suspected? I’m hurting enough and comments like this to a person when they are mentally unwell and facing difficult circumstances can be very damaging. Immediately reporting someone when you have the wrong end of the stick is not the best way to resolve something is it . I certainly don’t come in any forum to cause trouble. If you knew me in reality then you’d understand just how much I’m suffering. I’ve tried to be the best mother I could be . Recently lost my long term partner which has seriously destabilised me . Now my AS turns on me causing further misery. No , I won’t get your post removed because I’m not vindictive and frankly I’ve got to utilise today trying to talk to my son again about making this right . I know you’ve had a bad week , but maybe you should at least check out your information before making it public on here . Thanks a lot - yes I am Ladysuisei , which is the name of my cat ! Yes , I fully expect to be estranged by my son for spurious reasons. Yes , my partner died suddenly last January prematurely. Yes, I’ve needed help support and understanding from those on here .
No , I am NOT playing games . In future, if you have a problem with someone on a forum maybe you should speak to them first before issuing a public attack . This has been very upsetting because I’m trying to salvage my life . I have one child who I might be about to lose , please be kind .

@Allsorts

You’ve more or less described my life there thank you . I was a single mother, disabled ( not physically) , divorced from an abusive ex, reconnected with my late partner , strived to send my son to university e we here he studied to phD level in physics, made sure my son got the best life I could provide in the circumstances. Now , following my catastrophic loss he’s throwing me out like a piece of rubbish .

So what game do you suspect . Again , maybe asking a few questions quietly and privately would have put you right .
As is regularly pointed out on here , we all have very sad stories to tell .

Thank you for those who have genuinely helped and supported me . Today I face another gruelling meeting with my rather ungrateful AS , who unfortunately I still love very much . I would have come back later too seek feedback etc because I don’t know where to go from here .
Due to some rather unkind and inaccurate comments directed towards me , I am not sure if I feel comfortable sharing my innermost thoughts and fears . That’s really sad because I thought this was a safe space

I don't understand what the issue is here .

Ladydsuisei has come her for advice and support, as we all do and I don't see why her starting a new thread, and resurrecting the title of another to broaden the discussion is problematic.

I've yet to post on the other two but have read them and there are contributions being made by GN's who don't post here. Personally I think that's a good thing as it widens the debate.

I hope that your meeting with your son is OK Ladys. TBH, I admire your courage especially as he reduced you to tears yesterday.

I'm sorry that you are questioning whether or not this is somewhere you can feel safe to share; that is what this thread is for and I do hope you'll feel able to continue. It's not easy talking about such painful issues and takes courage to post for the first time, even with anonymity

There is a private message function, so if you'd feel happier you can send me pm's but I hope you'll continue to post here.

Please try to refuse to engage if he's in anyway disrespectful or abusive. Tell him to leave and only return when he can conduct himself appropriately.

Look out for you and try to stay strong .

@Whiff
Do you mean conversations ? I’m getting really confused here . I started some conversations. When you said threads I thought you meant I was using an alias or something? I thought it was ok to start a new conversation . Im not used to forums and I just wanted to open some chats up if that’s what you mean ? Sorry if this is not acceptable x

This is the estrangement forum Ladys and all the different conversations are called threads and of course you can start new ones .

I think differently to you Smileless on this and so I leave it to those that feel differently to me to engage with the poster either on the thread or by private message, just not me.

@Smiles

Thank you for your kindness. Well I don’t know what is happening here . He came , he stayed for 21/2 hours and was pretty nasty . I don’t think he wants to be estranged but he did mention it in passing. I really don’t know what’s going on . He wants a continuation of his relationship with me , but my DIL refuses to see me and he maintains I’ll not see his son . I tried to get to the root of this - now he’s not saying his son needs to be protected from me but I’m now a cruel mother . Back to the incident in August I’m afraid to say . Been told I was so hurtful that I will never be forgiven, ever . I’ve offered the olive branch once again which was refused. I asked what I could do to improve the situation: nothing. I took responsibility for things I didn’t say or do : not good enough. I apologised for a few things which were lies : can’t be forgiven. I had to tell him not to swear at me quite a few times and I stopped speaking to him at these points .

I do accept that this relationship is on the rocks but I am prepared to let it ride for the next 2 months until the child is here . I will need to see if anything changes- I doubt it will but I need to see for myself. I’m shocked at what he’s become and I feel incredibly sad that my own son is so harsh , so easily prepared to tell lies to make his case , so cold and unfeeling towards his mother . This lack of physical contact- no hug on the way in breaks my heart . He actually recoiled when I tried to hold his hand . I realise I’m putting myself through hell but whilst this is hanging on by a thread I feel I have to . I ask myself am I mad ? Why am I continuing like this . The answer is I love him very much and I can see unhappiness in his face - I want to be there for him . I want to try to make his unhappiness go away . Despite the fact he states his unhappiness is solely down to me , I don’t fully buy into this . I could see how anxious he is and he looks so tired , but if he won’t let me in what can I do ? I do worry about the effects of his demanding job , looking after my DIL , doing all the cooking and household tasks are having on him , but he won’t let me inside his house so how can I help him .
I wonder whether behind the scenes all is not well at home and I’m getting the brunt of this . I realise the pregnancy has been a struggle, blimey it’s been a struggle for me because I’ve literally been walking on eggshells for so many months now . Everything seems to change with a pregnancy doesn’t it ?
I realise his priorities have changed but this is no excuse for the ongoing cruelty and abusive language towards me .
This situation is going round in circles I realise but I don’t want to show him the door . He’s started using phrases like telling me I should be “ validating their experiences “ which I know full well come straight from the DIL’s mouth . It’s like talking with a stranger. So that’s it now until next weekend. He will speak to me on Saturday and see me on Sunday.
When I go back to my flat ( which he’s agreed to help me with ) he has told me it’s message only as he will be busy with the baby , so I don’t know how often I’ll see him then . I really don’t know what to think . Surely my DIL will be looking after the baby , but he insists that he will be busy .
I tackled him over whether this is heading for no contact which he denied , stating he is making further arrangements with me .
I must admit , the whole thing is so confusing. I gave him his get out option this morning and he didn’t take it . He could have said yes , no contact is good for me and left . But he didn’t.

Obviously I’m heartbroken by the no contact with his son . Ironically my ex husband who was a violent abuser is allowed to see him . My AS is making such a huge mistake because once you cause such a family division, often there’s no going back . He just doesn’t seem to care or think of the consequences. I feel like a bag of rubbish being tossed into the dustbin - not nice is it ?

I'm sorry it didn't go any better Ladys.

LadyS Can I ask a question please.
When your son visited did HE instigate the conversations about you and his perspective on your behaviour and his decisions re his family? Or did you instigate those conversations?

I'm asking because if it was you who instigated then maybe different approach would be:

* Say Hi when he arrives, make tea or whatever, ask about his work, ask how he is, tell him snippets of news about what you have been doing?

In other words just ignore the awful situation in which you find yourself and see how he responds to that.

He might:
* "play along" which might over time take some of the heat out of the present relationship impasse and create opportunities for deeper
discussion later.

Or

* deliberately start telling you more of what you have, from his perspective , "done wrong", probably repeating what you have already heard.

If that is the case you could:

*Listen; saying nothing. When he's finished say ""You have told me that before and I have heard you. You have told me there is nothing I can do to help the situation. Is that still the case?"

If he says "Yes" just say "I see" and look at him!

The point really is to stop "feeding" the angst that is being created whilst also listening and telling him you have heard him.

I dont know if this would work but it is maybe a strategy to consider as an alternative? 💐

@Smiles
Thank you . I’ve messaged him ( too many times) but I’m desperate. He’s not told me not to message just not to call . I am now questioning if I’m to blame . I can’t take much more of this - I feel so unwell xx

@madgran

Ooh that’s interesting. I’ll need to flick back to your post hang on ……..
Well it was almost certainly me who instigated the conversation, because I keep apologising.

Yes, good idea ignore the elephant in the room so to speak . Yes the impasse is getting on my nerves now , so by ignoring this as a topic of further conversation, from me is giving him more of a chance to go round in circles.

As you say , I might have a morning where we don’t discuss this from my point of view .
He might ignore this and “ play along “ but it will throw him certainty.

Or as you’ve said he might raise this all over again etc etc .

That’s clever . I am letting him talk more now which is quite interesting as he doesn’t always know what to say . So , inevitably I will hear more of whatever I’ve heard before ie what I’ve “ done wrong “ .

Yes listen and say nothing . Then say “ I’ve heard you . Heard this before . Been told I can’t do any more is this still the case “
More silence ( clever - lots of pauses )

If he says “ yes “ look at him and say “ I see “ and look at him

Yes this is worth a try thanks because when I’m anxious I cry , he ties me up in knots , and I just apologise and so this goes on . Then the abuse starts. If nothing else , this strategy reduces the opportunity for more abuse . Also , this sort of approach will surprise him because he’s used to me getting flustered and anxious. I never shout ( unlike him ) but I need to stop him talking over me , normally it gets fraught and I end up crying. He can be a bully at the moment which is unlike him ( or was anyway ) . There are so many things I could potentially not forgive him for but I just want him to come back to me . As he was . I forgive very easily whereas he’s not like me in this respect. Mind you my DIL tends to harbour grudges and dig her heels in . I try to remind him life’s too short for this , but he’s intractable at the moment. This is a completely new approach and would certainly take my AS by surprise. I’ve decided not to mention the baby again. I will need to accept whatever happens here . Again , this will surprise him . He’s used to my ( predictable) pattern of behaviour and this alternative strategy certainly isn’t it . I’m going to print this off and refer to it !! He makes notes on me so he won’t think it’s odd . I’ll need to practice.

Thank you for taking the time for coming up with this for me . It certainly will give me an easier time .
J xx.

Brilliant advice Madgran .

Thank you @Smiles and @madgran
Thank you for replying to me - it’s been a horrible weekend. Given this , AS still want’s a relationship with me . On his terms of course . One day ( following the baby ) I’ll make a decision as to whether or not I ought to put up with this behaviour. I don’t want to cause damage that might get resolved, but I could be deluded of course. When asked outright about no contact ( the youngsters term for this of course- which I find really dismissive) he denied wanting this stating he was “ here wasn’t he “ . It’s destabilising all this type of psychological abuse because that’s what it is . I don’t know what the future will hold with all this because he’s unpredictable. He also likes to be in charge. Idk if he’s got issues at home with the DIL’s pregnancy woes but he can deal with this on his own . I forgive but I’m not going to be open to being really hurt all over again. Again , I want a relationship with my GS but I’m afraid that if I should do , what could possibly happen. Held over me like the Sword Of Damocles ( thanks @Smiles ) .

I’d like to thank everyone who has given me advice and support over the last week . It won’t change the outcome but my self esteem is a bit higher than it was last Sunday even though I cried again!
I do feel like I’m among friends in the main .
Thanks for the help

It's such a relief to find somewhere to talk about this isn't it. I'm glad that you're finding it helps.

He doesn't seem to know what he does want does he, as if he's torn which does raise the question, where is this actually coming from?

You say he likes to be in charge and if what's happening is being led by someone else, his frustration at not being in charge must be driving him mad, is this why he's taking his anger and frustration out on you?

what was the incident in august ?

@wellbeck it is within quite a long post so I’ve quoted it . I’ll try and put it on here . I’m not very good with the system sorry though . There was an incident of miscommunication that’s escalated out of control really

Ladysuisei

Unfortunately I fear I might be about to be dumped by my 30 year old son . I love him and my DIL dearly but they have been so cruel to me and continue to be . They are expecting their first child soon and I’ve been told no contact because of something I said ( can’t remember really- can explain later) back last August . Yes 6 months ago , no wonder I can’t remember. Very sadly my partner age 59 dropped dead on the 16th January 2023 and I have been absolutely devastated by his loss . Lots of the last year have gone past in a blur , but i realise my DIL has hated me since the August incident. They were initially supportive in my grief but for many months now have been so cruel it’s unbelievable. My son tells me I’m wicked , manipulative, selfish, various expletives, a bad selfish self centred mother who he wishes was dead . This , I find so upsetting. Now I’ve got to the bottom of why they been ghosting me , punishing me when my behaviour isn’t “ good enough” , refusing to help me with practical things, refusing to visit me, I am told regularly that I need to “ do better “ and so many other examples of cruelty. My son has been banned from hugging me due to his right to protect his “ body autonomy “ leading to the first threat of not having contact with my grandson. I’ve been accused of possibly trying to steal him (!!) as if . I don’t really want to touch a dirty nappy at this stage ! Anyway this is all within the context of deep grief for my beloved partner who was my son’s step father for 20 years . I refuse to feel ashamed of this treatment and/ or any possible loss of contact. I have decided I have pride .
The incident which started this campaign of hatred is something I’d welcome honest feedback on . I won’t be upset by your honesty.
Around mid August my DIL and her mother (🙄) drove me to hospital because I felt very unwell. Turns out I needed to be in A&E as I had another Acute Kidney Injury which needed treatment. Whilst there , my DIL kept going to toilet then rushed up to reception. I was concerned and confused. Her mother announced to me “ K is bleeding. She is nearly 11 weeks pregnant “ . I was so shocked, because I hadn’t been told . They came up with some sort of justification for this , which was rubbish, but nevertheless I was so hurt by not being told . Immediately I realised I was about to be a nan , then this turned to horror when I realised she was having a threatened miscarriage. Turned out this bleeding she experienced wasn’t serious but I knew nothing, no facts , no information, no news , I was excluded . When my son arrived at the hospital so they could do some tests etc I rushed to him to give him a hug , saying omg why didn’t you say . I was heartbroken. He shoved me away saying I was making it about me . ( more confusion) . I was stating the fact that I didn’t know , yes I said why didn’t you tell me but this was coming from a place of concern. After they left the hospital I didn’t know what the doctor said - I was having bloods done . So I rang my son who promptly went ballistic telling me how could I be so selfish to enquire about why didn’t I know when they were suffering. It was messy , but I was so concerned I needed to ask you know ? So the upshot is that because I made this “ all about me “ by asking questions, I am heartless, selfish and a monster . Obviously this has been corroborated by the DIL’s bloody mother . Please be honest here - do I sound monstrous for asking why I didn’t know about the pregnancy so I could make sense of what was going on ? I’m devastated that I caused hurt , even though it was all getting misunderstood. Today I felt so upset after speaking to my boy about this yesterday, I sent my DIL a beautiful bouquet of roses. No acknowledgement whatsoever obviously but I didn’t do it for that - I want to show my remorse . Remorse for something which started because important news had been withheld from me . I’m shocked that this has caused so much trouble. My DIL is driving the no contact with the baby by saying she won’t see me ( ever ) . Maybe things will change before the child arrives in March / April, but it probably won’t . Am I being unreasonable here , and should I have just kept my mouth shut ? x

@wellbeck
Amongst other things , the August incident is in here

LadyS I am glad my suggestion has given food for thought.🙂

Just to say that your manner and tone is REALLY important in this strategy. Calm and unemotional demonstrates disengagement from the angst and a desire to listen and to find solutions, whether he is open to it or not

If he is raising points then your focus is on ensuring he "feels heard" not catching him out or making him feel awkward. Don't aim to "win" ...aim to give space for him to talk with YOU in control of your own perspective.

The phrases are important and there is a significant difference between "heard this before" and "You have told me this before and I have heard you!"

The first one sounds irritated and confrontational. The second one is stating clearly that you have HEARD HIM!

Similarly, "Been told there is nothing I can do ..." is not referring to him having told you that specifically ...the second one better demonstrates that.

The purpose is not to throw him per se; the purpose is to take some control for yourself of the conversation, to give him responsibility for his behaviour without feeding it and to demonstrate that you have listened and have heard.

Regarding him shouting at you you can either :

*tell you won't tolerate etc..which does feed into the angst

Or

* sit, look at him, say "I see!" which does not feed into the angst.

You definitely should not have to tolerate the bullying and shouting but the second reaction I describe actually is a different and powerful way if dealing with it which it might be worth considering

I hope none of the above comes over as patronising. That is not the intention. I can't think how else to explain the subtleties in using this type of strategy to deal with such emotional situations with a view to moving forward constructively ⚘

@Madgran77
Definitely not patronising! Very helpful in fact . I can tell what you mean - the delivery of a comment is just as important as the comment itself.
My mum , bless her would use tactics like this , particularly if I dared be rude to her ! The raised eyebrow was often enough to shut me up but blimey if I got the “ I see “ or similar followed by silence that would really sort me out !
With regards the “ I have heard you “ the difference between “ heard this before “ is huge .
I think I can manage calm and unemotional these days . Today I got a bit emotional but only when talking about the baby . This is a subject I won’t mention until he does now , or at least for a long while . It’s not getting me anywhere other than upset .

No I realise I shouldn’t have to take the bullying and abuse - I wouldn’t take this from a husband so why a son ? It’s so easy for him to tie me up in knots verbally , I get very anxious, so I need all the help I can get at the moment.
Thank you for taking the time to give me this advice