The next thread for friendship, advice and support if estrangement has affected your life

My only advice is to have any hope of having a relationship with your grandson not yet born you must first have a GOOD one with your son and in turn DIL. without that relationship mended and on good terms when the time is right (clearly not now, too stressfull all round) you have no chance of one with their son.

@allsorts yes I do see this from his point of view . When I say sadistic I meant his behaviour is sadistic not actually him per se . In fact I’m so careful that I will never say anything that can’t be unsaid , but it’s so difficult when you don’t know why ?

@yogin a lot of what you say I agree with . I know this has escalated due to the difficulty in pregnancy but that’s not my fault . I have always been prepared to help - I asked him yesterday if there’s anything I can do to help this situation to which he said no . I simply cannot do anything. I can’t stay with my dad long term I don’t think . I have to make a decision about my possessions in the flat I’ve given notice on . I ought to be moving to the new place and making the best of it but it’s this sudden change with my son that’s shocked me into believing this won’t be possible. Isn’t it awful when we NEED our children ( well in my case it’s child as I only have the one ) . He knows I need him and his wife , not for practical things only but in order to complete a family. He knows how important family is to me which is why he’s depriving me at the moment.

@ dismondLily yes you’re right - keeping the conversation light is the key . If I wasn’t feeling so vulnerable at present I would find this easy . I’m missing my partner’s calm lovely presence at the moment, something which I know you are going through yourself. I just cannot believe that during grief , my own son cannot make any allowances whatsoever. I can make allowances for my DILs difficult pregnancy, because I’ve been there myself. They’ve not experienced the shock and horror of losing a spouse , so the empathy is just not there . Despite me trying to explain just how hard I try to be “ normal mum “ I cannot help the fact I’ve changed . I don’t believe I’ve changed so much I deserve this treatment though . People don’t “ get “ death and mourning until it affects them and gradually I’m noticing I’m on my own with all this . It really hurts .

Thank you for call your different perspectives. I know advice is sometimes difficult to take on board and things are difficult to hear . I’m genuinely wanting to improve this situation, not make it worse , so I’m going to take a step back before speaking. I’m going to see things from my AS’s point of view and I’m trying my best to keep a difficult situation going . I’d never had expected to be living like this when my DP first died - in fact I had plenty of support. Gradually the support has trailed away which does leave me wondering what on earth is going on .

LadySu just stick to the strategy you have been implementing that created calmer conversations. It takes time. Dont rush it.

@Otter99 how do you go about fixing things when one person involved ( my DIL) won’t speak ? I’m am prepared to move mountains to have this good relationship back . We had a good relationship, but pregnancy has somehow tainted this and I can’t seem to do anything right ?
I’m backing off , I’m giving space , I’ve offered to help, I’ve offered to talk , I’ve done as much as I can . But if someone is intractable then I can’t see what more I can do . First and foremost I want to heal with my son and DIL - this is so important to me but they don’t see it like this . I’m at breaking point here not knowing which way to turn next

@madgran ok calm conversation. I will stick to the plan . Thank you . I’m starting to get desperate as I feel my life slipping away . Don’t they understand . Thank you

My suggestion would be wait till baby is here and they are out of the newborn phase as that's when hormones and other stressors level out for most women.
Keep up the relationship with your son in the meantime and wait till after 4th trimester to try with your DIL.

Ladysuisei

@madgran ok calm conversation. I will stick to the plan . Thank you . I’m starting to get desperate as I feel my life slipping away . Don’t they understand . Thank you

The desperation is understandable Ladysu and it inevitably and understandably makes one keep searching for answers and wondering what to do. That makes it so hard to stick to a strategy you have decided on especially when that straegy is about stepping back; not engaging in the angst; not arguing or justifying; giving him the decision making re conversations and just listening; introducing neutral day to day subjects etc. Try to remember that asking him; begging ; getting angry; justifying didnt get you answers, it just resulted in you enduring shouting and abuse. But the "calm" strategy resulted in a reasonable conversation and interaction.

Remember this is not about you tolerating this "status quo" for ever. It's about you creating a situation where maybe more meaningful discussion can take place; resolution found and you and your family moving forwards together. It may or may not work; it does take time and at least you will have tried

Also, try not to fixate too much on when the baby is born and building that relationship. The baby is going to be around, will grow and you can still build bonds if allowed to when they are older. The newborn meet up isnt crucial to that.

You have said in earlier posts that you will not tolerate thi ssituation for ever but you want to try. You have done well so far so keep trying. You will know when you cannot tolerate it. Your son says he wants to keep seeing you. You can in the future decide whether you wish to agree to that or not. But for the present you are clear that you do. Keep going

love and (((hugs))) DL

I've done as much as I can yes you have Ladysu and all you can do is to keep on doing what you're doing or if it's all getting too much for you, take a step back. Explain that while you totally understand why he's under so much pressure and stressed, that you don't believe seeing one another at the moment is good for either of you and suggest that he focuses his time and energy on his wife.

You cannot change the current status quo. You can only have a good relationship with your son and d.i.l. if they want one with you x.

Explain that while you totally understand why he's under so much pressure and stressed, that you don't believe seeing one another at the moment is good for either of you and suggest that he focuses his time and energy on his wife

Good suggestion Smileless. I think that is such a good way to approach it when you feel the time is right Ladysu. And Smileless is right, good relationships take both sides to want them! You can only have a good relationship if they want it too. At the moment you are giving them a chance to go for that good relationship. I hope they see that and take it.

@madgran and @Smiles well not our best week . He arrived in a bad mood , it’s so unpredictable. So it’s waiting for a whole week in the hope he comes back. This is exhausting because I’m doing as best I can . Sadly he forced the conversation into directions I didn’t want and although I did keep calm he got angry and left . I’m wanting to repair this because I really want to be able to say I’ve given 💯. I do not want to show him the door - I want him to know it’s open because I’d never forgive myself for not at least trying.

Well done for keeping calm! It's a shame he arrived in a bad mood!

I am just wondering how he forced the conversations in to areas you didnt want? Presumably he did want them.

No need to answer Ladysu if you are finding it too much at the moment

@madgran well my dad asked a few questions, then the AS got stroppy with my dad . I calmly told him not to do this - my dad’s 83 and deserves respect. I think dad talked about the baby and the fact that AS and DIL don’t have a good reason for denying relationship to me ! This got his back up and then the plan was more tricky to stick to . I was sticking with the plan though , next thing he threw a tantrum got up and said I’m going . I did ask him to calm down and finish his tea but no he wouldn’t. He’d been there for around 2 hours or a bit less .
A bad day . I can see he’s really tired and he was in a bad mood straight away . Funny thing is , how can he possibly be happy at home when he’s so nasty when he walks through the door . I can’t see him looking forward to parenthood- might be wrong but he’s not happy with something. I can only do my best - I messaged him and asked him to come next week. No response to this , so I will see . One day I might just get fed up with all this . I feel he’s being a bad parent already by using his son as a pawn .

I'm sorry it went badly. However I'm afraid that your own "calm" strategy won't work when your dad is doing the opposite. I did not realise your dad is present when you see him Lady but in those circumstances unless your dad is able to do as described previously in maintaining calm then I think the problems are likely to continue and although your dad means well and is understandably protective of you and wants to give his opinions, he will be nadvertently exacerbating the problem. Is your dad always present? That does seem to change the dynamics in trying to maintain your relationship with your son.

I would suggest not messaging your son afterwards as well, especially when he is angry. He has said he wants to continue seeing you; you speak on Saturday; he visits on a Sunday and he has said he wants that to continue. Assume that it is until either you or he draw a line and say "no more"! By messaging him you are inadvertently enabling him to be irritated/angry/ignore you/send an abusive reply or whatever. Step back and don't engage in the angst!

I know this is all so hard

Ladysusiei sorry things didn't go as you would like. But I can see things from your dad's point of view. You are still his little girl and hates the way your son is treating you and he is protecting you and to do that he needs answers from you son . The best thing don't text or contact your son at all wait to see if he contacts you.. I know that will be hard but if he doesn't contact you then you know where you stand.

You are his mom not his punching bag to take his temper out of . He if has problems at home with his wife then he needs to sort himself out . He's a grown man about to be a dad he needs to grow up.

As much as it hurts how my son estranged I would rather it be this way that what you are going through. If you don't have any contact from him then you can move forward knowing where you stand.

My son's email ended I don't like you mom but love you give me time. I did I gave him from May until his and his second sons birthday which is the same day in August . So I sent cards in his I put a cheque saying how the cheque was to be spilt . Told him the result of my bubble echocardiogram which he knew at the time of the email they found a problem with my heart. Just a friendly letter never mentioned the email. Birth card and 3 presents for my new grandson who was due in July. The day after their birthday the parcel came back all unopened the babies presents crushed . Made me wonder who has a hissy fit him or my daughter in law as they where crushed by hand luckily everything was soft . With a hand written letter by my son saying he doesn't want my vindictive and manipulative behaviour anywhere near him or his family ever again zero contact.

I have never been vindictive or manipulative to anyone. I hated my in laws and hated my mother in law for 40 years my husband loved his parents but didn't like them . If they started on us we walked out but went back the next Sunday. I looked after a woman I hated for 11 years after my husband died. Both the children always keep in touch with her even though she refused to go to their weddings. Or the fact she denied having a son or grandchildren. She never had dementia or Alzheimer's she was just a horrible woman .

My son and daughter in law have turned into my laws . The worst of it my son and daughter in law knows how his grandmother treated us. His grandad died in 1988. They know what bad in laws are like and I am tarred with the same brush.

I miss and want my husband everyday but I don't want my son everyday . That's the big difference. And why I decided last year I am done . No more holding out any hope of seeing my son or grandsons ever again . I love the son I had for 32 years and love my grandsons even though I don't know the youngest. I do not love my daughter in law anymore she killed that love with her Reddit post about my husband a man she never knew.

But I know my grandsons are well cared for as the boys are their world.

Ladysusiei you have lot of things going on in your life grieving for your partner ,moving and any health worries . You son needs to be bottom of that list. He has chosen his path and nothing you can do will change him. But you can learn to accept it which will be hard. But the grief you feel for your partner is harder. You have strong family back up with your dad and sister. It's hurting them seeing you treated this way.

And stop blaming yourself. You are hurting yourself . Like I said your son has chosen his own path and just let him get on with it. Don't contact him as it will only give him more things to hurt you with.

It's a horrible thing when we have to protect ourselves from our own children . In this throw away society we live in parents are increasingly disposable. Estrangement is no longer a taboo subject and it's happening more and more in families. And because of that this support thread is needed more than ever.

@madgran yes dad was there yesterday because I’m staying at his house . He’s not always there so not usually part of our conversation. I do think yesterday was just a particularly bad day . AS arrived grumpy and there’s no way I can handle him like that . He’s unreasonable and argumentative, but I remain calm . I did make the mistake of contacting him didn’t I …….im so used to how life used to be it’s hard adapting to this new version of things. I really hope he comes next week because I was making headway. I’m optimistic that one bad day won’t take us back to square one like snakes and ladders . I can see how unhappy he is and because I still love him , I worry . I’m sure the stress of the baby coming soon is getting to him but that’s no excuse for shouting. This time , mind , he wasn’t abusive . He said some hurtful things which is par for the course but no abuse . Xxx

Morning everyone.

I'm sorry it didn't go well yesterday Ladysu and although it's perfectly understandable that your dad interjected because he wanted to protect and defend you, it probably exacerbated the situation.

As Madgran's said, if your dad is going to be involved he needs to adopt your calm approach. Having said that, in all likelihood how ever calmly he may have approached the subject of the baby, your son would have reacted the same way because he knows he's being at best unreasonable and at worse, cruel.

Have you thought about arranging to meet up with him in a public place, a coffee bar for example? This would avoid any involvement from your dad and would probably prevent your son from raising his voice, let alone shouting at you.

This might be a good idea when you get moved. When we came here we were relieved to have that geographical distance between us and our ES. He's never been here and we've never had any unpleasant communication from him in the 7 plus years we've lived here. Just 2 emails, one when my mum died and one when Mr. S's. mum died.

Your new home could be for you what ours is for us, and EAC free zone.

I suspect you'll say you wont suggest it because he wouldn't agree but if that's the case, maybe taking out his anger and stress on you is what motivates these visits.

Even with your d.i.l.'s blood pressure issue, his stress does appear to be off the scale. He's an adult, about to be a father and as we all know, parenthood brings its own difficulties and stresses. As Whiff has said, he needs to grow up.

I agree with Smileless and Whiff - this seems to be a huge drama over a pregnancy.

If they think it’s stress now, wait until they’ve got a demanding baby, refusing to allow anyone to sleep.🙄

They both really need to stop the drama Llama stuff. The miscarriage didn’t happen, and blood pressure can be monitored/regulated by hospital staff.

I fully understand your Dad wanting to defend you - kids are for life, not just for Christmas, so we always defend them, even as adults. I’m blunt with my adult GCs at times, if they are being unreasonable with their parents..

But - there are times when that’s fine, but there’s also a time for GPs to shut up, and this was probably one of those times.

I agree with the idea that the next visit would be best with just you and your son there. You have a home, or perhaps a local cafe/restaurant for a drink/lunch. Neutral ground.

However, if this persists, you may be better backing away completely. It’s just causing you more stress.

Best wishes. 💐

@Whiff yes you are right as always . My AS needs to grow up and he needs to stop being so stroppy when he comes to see me . I feel grief every day for my partner , because I know he’s gone forever and I’m wanting him so much too . His calm rational presence would be more than welcome in this situation because I’m sure that my DIL would still make a meal out of pregnancy no matter what . I realise it’s been quite difficult but isn’t everyone’s? I had very high bp and was hospitalised twice for a month , whilst working full time and it didn’t make me nasty . It just made me worry . I will decide what I need to do about all this , but whilst he’s still wanting to see me , I’m prepared to put the effort in . I want any estrangement to come from him - I won’t instigate this xxx

@Smiles and DiamondLily thanks for your replies. Well that could be a good idea , keeping my new home an AS free zone and I will give it thought . It’s not as if he’s helping me move in or anything so he won’t need to be there at all .
Dad doesn’t normally get involved. I was surprised that he came in and spoke about the baby - mind you this will be his one and only great grandson and given he’s 83 and no sign of any from my sisters side on the horizon he’s disappointed at not seeing him . He won’t see him if I’m not allowed. I realise that our only chance of having a relationship with the child is by having a decent relationship with my AS and DIL - despite my efforts this is not happening at present. Yes you’re right he does need to grow up especially given he’s going to be a dad very soon .
I think the same way as you too - DiamondLily - the miscarriage turned out to be a false alarm and whilst scary at the time , can’t they be happy all was well ? Sometimes I wonder why they are making such a fuss- I would be grateful that the pregnancy turned out to be normal and healthy, not dwell on the threatened miscarriage which was in the early stages. This is so much more important I feel. They think this sort of opinion is really insensitive, but the pregnancy is going well apart from usual things like the high bp . Let’s hope she doesn’t have a labour like mine - she really will be traumatised then . My son got stuck and after a 2 hour tugging session with forceps and ventouse he went into distress . We both nearly died and I was rushed to theatre for emergency c/section . I was traumatised by this , so let’s hope she escapes this fate . She doesn’t know how scary that was , thankfully.
So yes this weekend could have gone better but there’s always next week hey ?!!

Setting boundaries to protect your mental and physical health isn't instigating estrangement Ladysu and if it was seen as doing so, that would just be an excuse your son would use when in actual fact it would be him who estranged you.

We all I'm sure understand your feelings of helplessness, something we've all gone through. The helplessness is that no matter what we do or don't do, and I think Yogin and I are good examples of this as we handled our estrangements completely differently, if they want to estrange you they will, and there's nothing you can do about that.

We are not helpless though, when it comes to protecting ourselves from any unacceptable behaviour. I truly believe that what ever those decisions maybe, they will not be responsible for our AC estranging us. The unacceptable behaviour many parents find themselves on the receiving end of, leading up to being estranged, is sadly symptomatic of what's to come.

If estrangement is what happens, it's because the decision to estrange was already made, we just didn't realise it until it actually happened.

There seem to be some good ideas for you to think about from lots of us Lady so that is helpful for you. I think the suggestion of keeping your new home free from all this is a particularly good one ...if and when things improve considerably you could review but whilst you are dealing with things as they are now your home should be a haven, not caught up in shouting and abuse in your mind.

I want any estrangement to come from him - I won’t instigate this

I understand that you are very clear in your mind about this....there may come a time when your own welfare has to take priority though so do keep that in mind

@madgran yes I’m having a lot of good advice . I hold out hope which is possibly my issue here .
I am so shocked by the change in my son I cannot believe I’ll become estranged so I can’t let go ? I hope this makes sense .
I keep thinking he’s the same boy , which we all understand is quite heartbreaking. I’m prepared to put in whatever it takes on my part to prevent estrangement. I see my DIL as possibly being a Gatekeeper within this situation. I just have a strange feeling about her actions over the last few months . I am certain she wants my AS as her protector and wants him away from me as he was perceived to be too close maybe ? I’m heartbroken by his changes in character- he uses the phrases she uses nowadays so he sounds like my DIL too . I’ve issued an apology to her for any hurt I’ve caused her . I’m mindful of the fact that I will need to have a good relationship with both of them for this to work . Actually I WANT a good relationship with my DIL . I still have affection for her because there’s s chance isn’t there that from their point of view , I have wronged them . To maintain family relations , I am apologetic to my DIL and I hope she will stop seeing me as the evil MIL and see me as the person I really am , and that is a very frightened mum x

@Smiles yes obviously I am concerned that the decision to estrange has already been made . I cannot understand though why it’s not already been done if that’s the case . My son does seem to want to work through , or at least keep going with our relationship. I’m desperate I’ll admit to this . I have one son , no partner and yes I’m panicking. I’m willing to compromise for the time being in order to keep the relationship going. I’m putting off thinking about a possible estrangement, because I’m still wrestling with hope . His abuse has lessened considerably. Yes he says hurtful things . I don’t really know why . He tells me I’ve hurt him so maybe this is his revenge , I don’t know. I’m feeling that things have already come to a head and whatever is going on will burn itself out soon . Maybe once the baby is here and he’s off work for a month , he will use this as an opportunity to not see me then never come back . At least then I will know - I’ll also know that I’ve put in my 💯 and there will be no recriminations on my part . I’ve been watching Dr Joshua Coleman on YouTube and his take on the situation of estrangement has given me yet another perspective. Yes , he doesn’t advocate parents putting up with abuse but , whilst its usual for AC to estrange , parents sometimes have to take a bit of blame . I think maybe I should take a bit of blame - not because I’ve done anything wrong necessarily, but I’ve always been so close to my son maybe he feels smothered by me ? This is a radical view I know , but it’s something I personally might need to face up to . Perhaps I should give my AS more freedom and then he will come back to me . I’m not sure at all , but I’m not ready to show him the door just yet xxx

Ladysuisei, you specifically said that your son had asked you to stop bringing up the topic of you not seeing your grandson (who isn’t even born yet).

Therefore, it was entirely predictable how your son would react to your father bringing up the topic of you not seeing your grandson.

Rather than spiralling into thoughts about your DIL being the “gatekeeper” and you saying you have no idea why your son is acting the way he is, maybe first try respecting his wishes i.e. not bringing up topics of conversation that he has said he doesn’t wish to discuss because it only leads to arguments (and not getting others to bring up those topics on your behalf).

I would imagine that by simply respecting your son’s wishes and boundaries, your relationship will improve.

Your son is desperately trying to salvage his relationship with you. Relationships are 50/50. He is doing his part. But he cannot carry 100% responsibility for the relationship. You are also responsible for your part. But you are pushing your 50% responsibility onto your son. If you continue doing this, the relationship will not improve.

GG65 Rather than spiralling into thoughts about your DIL being the “gatekeeper” and you saying you have no idea why your son is acting the way he is, maybe first try respecting his wishes i.e. not bringing up topics of conversation that he has said he doesn’t wish to discuss because it only leads to arguments (and not getting others to bring up those topics on your behalf)

Lady has managed to do exactly that GG65; perhaps you missed that earlier in the thread where that is exactly what she achieved last week, allowing her son to lead the conversation, keeping calm and well done to her for doing that as it was clearly not easy for her.

She has already explained before you posted that she was surprised that her dad came in and commented and she hadn't expected that; she was not "getting other people to bring up those topics for her"; and she has already acknowledged that her dad's input unfortunately exacerbated things!

Lady has clearly expressed some recognition of her own part in the relationship previously; she is categorically not pushing all of her responsibility onto her son. She is trying to work out what her part exactly is in the relationship as things stand now!

Her son clearly is trying to maintain a relationship although he does bear responsibility for his abusive behaviour/statements to his mother that Lady gave some details of earlier in the thread! Those are well beyond boundaries and if Lady wished to she would be well within her rights to set that boundary, tolerate such abuse no more and have her own boundary respected. Last week she totally respected his boundary enabling him to behave considerably more appropriately; as a result Lady did not have to endure yet more extremely vitriolic abuse as per what she mentioned on here! Which was good for both of them!