Vile abuse from adult daughter

Caleo

Jenpax, I read your reply about the social services being unable to help out.

Do the children get on okay with their mother? If so is there still a good enough reason for someone such as yourself to do the evening duties?

The younger children need to be in bed by 8PM, and the oldest child in bed by 9 at the latest. Does their mother understand parenting or not?

If you were to speak briefly and sternly to your daughter when she abuses you would she listen? Are you afraid of her?

Its not as simple as in bed by! Yes they are in bed at reasonable times but struggle to get to sleep and the middle child cannot manage to sleep without an adult present. He lies awake talking for hours! He says his brain is too busy and he often does not fall asleep til 10 despite being in bed at 7.30/8. I have tried warm milk, no screens, dimmed light, white noise, lavender sleep spray, herbal patches, warm baths, calming music and he still wont settle. The older child also struggles but obviously knows that an early start is looming so goes to be at a reasonable time.

If you don't withdraw from the evening difficulties as people have said you will make yourself very ill but also it prevents any kind of help reaching the family?

Its your DD's job (except for the occasional agreed "baby sit" and if she cant cope then she needs to go for help.

I’m shocked by everything you’ve said. I try and help my Daughters with childcare, school runs and so forth and yes I admit I’m also taken advantage of, and I do feel torn trying to ‘say no’ and look after myself.
However I think it’s wrong that your Daughter is speaking to you and treating you this way! It’s got to stop and she won’t ever treat you with respect let alone kindness while you’re allowing her to behave like that.
Believe me I’m not trying to lecture you and I know first hand how difficult it is to ‘say no’ but how long can you carry on like this?
Can you try and ask yourself what you would like to happen next so that her awful treatment of you and the hours you’re putting in to help her…… lessen/subside?
As much as it’s hard to hear, I think you need to accept that the change can only come from inside you…. How? Try and assert yourself, if you feel it’s impossible to do that in the heat of the moment I would message your Daughter once you’re home. Either way, practice what you’ll say/message which is along the lines of ‘I’m upset and I’m overtired, I feel I’m no longer able to help you if you speak/treat me this way. I won’t be there tomorrow/for the rest of the week as I have/or I’m making a Doctors App. When I feel better we need to have a chat about my taking a few days out weekly, and, if you raise your voice to me or insult me I will leave you to it’.

Motherduck

I’m shocked by everything you’ve said. I try and help my Daughters with childcare, school runs and so forth and yes I admit I’m also taken advantage of, and I do feel torn trying to ‘say no’ and look after myself.
However I think it’s wrong that your Daughter is speaking to you and treating you this way! It’s got to stop and she won’t ever treat you with respect let alone kindness while you’re allowing her to behave like that.
Believe me I’m not trying to lecture you and I know first hand how difficult it is to ‘say no’ but how long can you carry on like this?
Can you try and ask yourself what you would like to happen next so that her awful treatment of you and the hours you’re putting in to help her…… lessen/subside?
As much as it’s hard to hear, I think you need to accept that the change can only come from inside you…. How? Try and assert yourself, if you feel it’s impossible to do that in the heat of the moment I would message your Daughter once you’re home. Either way, practice what you’ll say/message which is along the lines of ‘I’m upset and I’m overtired, I feel I’m no longer able to help you if you speak/treat me this way. I won’t be there tomorrow/for the rest of the week as I have/or I’m making a Doctors App. When I feel better we need to have a chat about my taking a few days out weekly, and, if you raise your voice to me or insult me I will leave you to it’.

That advice is spot on. Please take it jenpax

Its not as simple as in bed by! Yes they are in bed at reasonable times but struggle to get to sleep and the middle child cannot manage to sleep without an adult present. He lies awake talking for hours! He says his brain is too busy and he often does not fall asleep til 10 despite being in bed at 7.30/8. I have tried warm milk, no screens, dimmed light, white noise, lavender sleep spray, herbal patches, warm baths, calming music and he still wont settle.

Of course he won't settle because he has an adult as an audience and an awful amount of attention.
Where is his mother during this time? Is she working?
She needs to seek guidance from a GP, follow advice then put him to bed, close the door and leave him.
THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM.
You really are making a rod for your own back.

Jenpax, I don't know you and can only make what may or may not be helpful suggestions.
I agree with easybee: withdraw all rewards for talking after lights out. Another suggestion is to stop all caffeine such as tea and coffee at all times, also cut down on sugar.

eazybee

^Its not as simple as in bed by! Yes they are in bed at reasonable times but struggle to get to sleep and the middle child cannot manage to sleep without an adult present. He lies awake talking for hours! He says his brain is too busy and he often does not fall asleep til 10 despite being in bed at 7.30/8. I have tried warm milk, no screens, dimmed light, white noise, lavender sleep spray, herbal patches, warm baths, calming music and he still wont settle.^

Of course he won't settle because he has an adult as an audience and an awful amount of attention.
Where is his mother during this time? Is she working?
She needs to seek guidance from a GP, follow advice then put him to bed, close the door and leave him.
THIS IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM.
You really are making a rod for your own back.

Things do not work like this with many ND kids. Shutting the door and leaving him will lead to traumatic upset which is damaging for the child. I have taken a lot of advice about this from ND specialists, educated myself extensively and attended courses. Eventually it will improve but it cannot be rushed. Its not at all uncommon his eldest sibling was exactly the same but eventually did manage to sleep on his own!

Caleo

Jenpax, I don't know you and can only make what may or may not be helpful suggestions.
I agree with easybee: withdraw all rewards for talking after lights out. Another suggestion is to stop all caffeine such as tea and coffee at all times, also cut down on sugar.

The children do not have any caffeine and very limited sugar certainly none before bed

Not sure the OP actually wants anything to change as she has yet to engage with any of the suggestions made here. Looks as if the situation will carry on until there is some sort of crisis which will force an intervention of some kind. Very sad.

The sugar rush story is a myth that was busted years ago. Here is a link to one of many reputable articles debunking the sugar rush myth www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324896#The-complexity-of-food

We have neural diversity in our family, ADHD, dyspraxia and autism. My approach to not sleeping was simply to insist the child got ready for bed, went into their bedroom and stayed their quietly doing anything they wished, read, look at books, play with logo, play with dolls, draw pictures, as long as it was nothing exciting. When they were ready they would settle down to sleep. There was a fixed rising time and if they were tired that was their problem. This method worked reasonably well for us, whether it works for others I do not know.

Yes Monica, that is the advice given to parents of 'neuro-diverse' children I have worked with, and it works. Certainly not sitting in attendance for several hours.
Granny Somerset, you are absolutely right; I don't think the OP wants anything to change; pointless to offer advice .
Something faintly disturbing going on here.

GrannySomerset

Not sure the OP actually wants anything to change as she has yet to engage with any of the suggestions made here. Looks as if the situation will carry on until there is some sort of crisis which will force an intervention of some kind. Very sad.

I am not sure why you think that! I am merely saying its not straightforward if it was I would not be in the situation. I have taken on board what has been said and will think hard about next steps. My posts previously were when I lived in the household and I took advice and changed that after all
Thanks for the differing perspectives

I have every sympathy for jenpax. No one actively chooses to to be in these situations but gets drawn into them bit by bit - giving a little bit of help here, then giving a little bit of help there and without really realising it suddenly you are enmeshed in what is, quite frankly, a toxic situation and getting out of it is not easy, especially if your nature is to go with the flow.

The OP and daughter and family are no longer living together. This is a start. Now she needs to realise that all she is doing may be hindering rather than helping this family getting the professional help they really need and that the situation they are currently in is also not good for the family.

For the children to have their grandmother in the house at their mothers beck and call. A woman who constantly and vilely abuses the older woman cannot be good for the children. It is family abuse and may well lead to the children, especially the boys growing up to think that it is acceptable to verbally, so easily drifting into physically, abuse anyone in their household over whom they can wield power.

I think she is one of those loving mothers who has always put her children first in everything and is now reaping the whirlwind that usually results from this kind of mothering, done from the best of attentions. She now has to learn when to walk away from a child and say. Thus much I have done, I can do no more.

And the first thing she must do is tell her daughter that help is dependent on being treated with courtesy and respect, and she must make it clear, if her daughter starts to abuse her, she will put down what she is doing, pick up her handbag and walk out and go home for the rest of the day.

The second things she must do is limit how much help she gives the family. It is unreasonable for her to be at her daughter's home at 7.00 in the morning or to stay until 11.00pm. They need to work out their own morning routines. Some of this can be met by advanced planning.

Packed lunches can be prepared when the children get home from school each day and left in the fridge overnight. The next day's clothes can also be prepared and placed on a chair or whatever overnight, by 6.00pm in the evening, which is the latest she should stay - and if she stays that late she should expect her daughter to also provide her with the evening meal.
which the family should all eat together sat round a table, as part of the calming down night time routine.

But do one thing at a time. Start by stopping the abuse.

Everything you say is correct Monica but I think there may be some co-dependency going on here too..

M0nica

Let us start at the beginning. This problem is nothing to do with what you are and everything to do with what your daughter is.

Speak to your other children, they, I am sure, will tell you, have already told you, that none of what this difficult daughter says about you is true. Everything she says comes from within her and is her exercising the power she realises she has to diminish you and make you, a professional women doubt yourself.

So the first thing you need to do is to stop taking this offensive talk as personal to you. Ignore it, do not respond to it. Find a mantra or short phrase to repeat to yourself aagain and again ,when she starts ranting so that you can curl up in its comfort. It may be something like 'I am a successful professional woman' repeated again and aagain

The second thing you must do is start to put some clear water between your daughter and yourself. You say your grandchildren have ND problems, but apart PDA give no indication what these problems are. We are a ND family, but how it affects every family is immensely different depending on the problem and age of the children.

Stop going to the house in the morning and helping the children get dressed and out to school. It might be beneficial to all of them if they did have to manage without help. It may mean that they start being late to school and having problems that do attract, or make necessary, school or social services intervention.

Thirdly make clear to your daughter that unless the abuse stops you will offer no help at all. tell her, if she starts abusing you, you will walk out of the house immediately and leave her to manage on her own - and do not return for the rest of the day.so. She will eventually get the message.

jenpax the solution to this problem is in your hands, but it needs you to take action, and if necessary leave your daughter to manage alone with her children. I cannot think that that result will be any worse than the current situation with a harridan of an abusive daughter shouting at you and the children witnessing it all.

Finally get counselling, there is nothing you cannot tell a counsellor and she will help you recover your self worth and stand up to this difficult daughter

Also turn to your other children, they may not be near you but phones and zooms and texts and whats app, can all help you keep in daily touch and if they know that you are dealling with this difficult situation, I am sure they will give you all the support you need

Fantastic advice! I second this

Everything you say is correct Monica but I think there may be some co-dependency going on here too.

Yes. Absolutely.
Seen it with a friend and her mother. They cannot stop interfering in each other's lives, and the daughter is now repeating her mother's behaviour with her own adult children.

Agree easybee, what on earth will happen to those children.

Oh I have seen this as well with my family situation. Three children, a daughter who is a carbon copy of her mother, always arguing, always in each others pockets but another daughter now estranged has put a stop to arguing. Rather a lot of venom from both towards the estranged daughter who is a polar opposite, she was a quiet, sweet child. A son who has moved to the other side of the country full of excuses why he can't visit or get involved.

It’s all very sad.

Our daughter is ND, as a child she didn’t seem to need any sleep at all, we would send her off to bed, with the rule that so long as she stayed in her room, with the door shut, she could read, listen to music or anything relaxing.

I think that one thing you could try and do is whenever possible, without bringing attention to it, you should take photos on your phone with the comments too. If you can get quite a bit of a collection over a set time, you then have some clear evidence that it is not a one off, that she is doing it deliberately and if later you need evidence with your own daughters or for any social workers or anything. So then your daughter cannot deny her behaviour, and you have clear evidence for anyone you need it for. Then when you quietly state that is enough and walk out, she will see you will stand no more.

Before you do that, you need to think what you might feel able to do for your grandchildren. You might think you could have an afternoon or morning each week, or be available a couple of hours a week when they know you are there for them. So you are making a clear distinction between your attitude to her and the attitude to the children.

If you can be strong and keep to your plan, she is very likely to get into a situation which will then be obvious to other people, as you will not be covering up her behaviour or style of running her household. Then however she wants to take it, if you are no longer around, she cannot possibly blame you for whatever happens in her household. Being a safe haven and a constant support for the children would , I suggest, be the best long term thing you can do, as they will at least be able to see how a normal and straightforward life can be. The very best of luck, dont feel guilty at all, as the most important thing is that you need to be there for the children when you are needed. If you let her drag you down I think you could end up ill and then unable to be there when you surely will be needed. The best of luck and the grandchildren are lucky to have a caring granny looking out for them.

Apologies Jenpax, for presuming to advise. I know next to nothing about neuro divergence .

I am wondering if your daughter would be happier and more peaceful if she abandoned her attempt to do a nursing degree. Am I mistaken or did someone say she is doing a nursing degree?
Was there no selection process by the university?

Must she go outside her home to earn money? Are disabled benefits not sufficient?

Well, I just left, I came back to my home town and we only have the odd email now. I was'nt going to let here do it.

I agree, but more specific about what she's doing to cause distress, you said xyz, this is very upsetting, you did xyz, this hurt my feelings.

Another thing, the SS won't help unless it falls apart, at the moment you're holding it together so if you back off or put boundaries in place, she'll either get it together or it'll fall apart. Help in other forms may turn up then.

Raising awareness about parental and grandparent alienation.

chng.it/9f2hZKj24Q

Mj 😊