Estrangement

The comment as written was not made to cause the reaction it did but the twisting of it to suggest it was about all d's.i.l., certainly was done to cause a reaction and if you deal with facts and not conjecture as you claim Luminance, you should know that.

The comment was made to cause the reaction it did. I deal with facts and not conjecture, especially conjecture designed for offence thank you very much.

No Luminance your post @ 12.02 is an example of how a poster's post is twisted. It's so clear that I don't understand why you're unable to acknowledge that pascal wasn't referring to all d's.i.l. she's referring to all the d's.i.l. of her friends who have been estranged.

It's not a question of interpretation, it's simply being able to read what has been written and I've lost count of the number of times I've acknowledged that abusive m's.i.l. exist.

It's as if you and I aren't reading the same threads and posts on GN.

Luminance

Thank you for your response Madgran but it was a simple example. Of course nothing is a given. Simply, one cannot acknowledge that abusive DILs exist without acknowledging that abusive MILs do too. And actually, throughout an abusive person's life they generally do not become better people, they simply become better at hiding it unless they seek professional help to deal with the underlying cause.

Oh ok. Well yes abusive people can have any role in a family; I would say that is a given.

I'm not sure that anything in this thread has suggested that anyone thinks otherwise.

That's an example of bias Smileless2012 when believing your interpretation or reaction correct whilst ignoring that such a comment caused another pain. You are able to shut down other generalisations if they come from "EAC" as you call them. Thank you for the discussion but I think that might be my limit for today on this subject and the sun is shining whilst I waste this time.

The comment that appears to have been twisted for the sake of causing an argument Luminance was from pascal who said that all the friends she knows who have been estranged, have been estranged because of all of their d's.i.l. (my emphasis).

No one including pascal has denied that this was said. What is being corrected is the claim that you are once again reiterating that this was about ALL DIL.

Well, my perspective on who has received a bad response would differ entirely but whether others can objectively view that I am unsure. I believe we were in fact discussing a comment about ALL DIL in fact. Sometimes saying nothing is just as bad as saying something. Especially when there are arguments against that comment being bad and indeed at points comments stating it didn't happen at all! To me that is rather outrageous but indeed I understand why it is happening and what it means.

I've never seen an EAC receive a bad response Luminance unless they project thei anger and hostility toward EP's posting here.

I do agree that there's a strong possibility that jealous and controlling d'.s.i.l. will become jealous and controlling m's.i.l. and is something I worry about for our GC.

That for me is when the egg becomes the chicken so to speak.

DiamondLily

Yes, abusive people should get help to change their mindsets.

But, equally, those that feel badly treated by their parents, rightly or wrongly, should seek help to avoid them damaging others. 🙂

This is both true and not true, it does rather depend on a lot of factors. Whilst some children who grew up in an abusive home might go through life believing this a good example to base their own behaviour, many in fact do not and through education and support become good people able to see and work on their own faults.

Yes, abusive people should get help to change their mindsets.

But, equally, those that feel badly treated by their parents, rightly or wrongly, should seek help to avoid them damaging others. 🙂

Thank you for your response Madgran but it was a simple example. Of course nothing is a given. Simply, one cannot acknowledge that abusive DILs exist without acknowledging that abusive MILs do too. And actually, throughout an abusive person's life they generally do not become better people, they simply become better at hiding it unless they seek professional help to deal with the underlying cause.

Those who are perhaps jealous of controling DILs would surely be the ones who become jealous and controling MILs one day. The egg becomes the chicken so to speak. It would be rather short sighted to believe otherwise. I hope you agree

I dont really understand this point as a "given" that I think you are suggesting Luminance

1. It cannot be assumed that jealousy is at the root of a MIL's feelings being expressed regarding a breakdown in a relationship with an AC and their partner. It may be in some cases but is not a given

2.If jealousy is the driving emotion it doesn't mean that will inevitably be a prelude to controlling behaviour as a mother in law. I don't think there can be any assumption of that and believing such an assumption is wrong is not short sighted. (I am sure there are cases where jealousy and control go together but it's just not a given)

Well, it’s a sad fact that damaged people often want to cause damage to others - I suppose they feel they need validation of their behaviour. Along with solidarity and support of their partners or whoever.

But coercion is mental abuse - and it has a ripple effect on others.

I hope that you do what most others do on here - have a lovely life despite your sadness - it’s not easy though. 💐

Oh I most certainly believe it, I come across it all too often in my profession. What I do not understand is the idea that the DIL is to blame in almost every scenario where actually the primary relationship is between parent and child. Granted our children are going to have relationships with people we dislike at times but when we make that dislike palpable in the midst of their relationship that is a rather fundamental issue in ourselves that will only cause distance between us and our own children. Any domestic abuse support service worth a jot will tell you that in order to support a victim of abuse you must take a listening and validating approach. Were you to try in any way to control that situation, to tell your child how to proceed, you then simply become the same to their minds. The realisation of abuse must come from the victim themselves. Should you engage in a tug of war with a spouse you dislike, you stop being a refuge and become another person who is not safe. If you cannot be the light against darkness, you would make an abusers job all too easy. In the many scenarios where a child has gravitated towards a controlling spouse because their home life growing up was controlling, then things become much more difficult and complex. Focusing on the parent to child relationship and being a safe refuge that listens and validated and does not control may be easy or may be hard depending on how a parent has approached the relationship before but realising this is fundamental.

Interestingly I had a very controlling m.i.l., my DH being an only child. She said on our engagement that 'it won't last', we've been married for 57 years. Because of this I was very careful not to be. Our problems were down to my d.i.l.s childhood and our relationship was doomed from the start. She went out of her way, and was very successful, in convincing our ES that he was the same as her, two very badly treated people. In the case of our ES, nothing if further from the truth.

Coercive control between a couple, does most certainly exist, as I know from experience.🙄

It’s insidious, it’s slow growing, it gradually takes over everything, and it’s mentally harmful to all who are affected by it. According to figures, it’s most common between those in a relationship.

That’s why it was made a criminal offence in 2015. 🤷‍♀️

I don’t know why some seem to find it impossible to believe that a DIL/SIL can behave like this. 🙄

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/controlling-or-coercive-behaviour-intimate-or-family-relationship

This does rather work both ways I feel, I am sure many estranged children deserve a better response as well in the partners they have chosen to love. People are themselves throughout their lives. Those who are perhaps jealous of controling DILs would surely be the ones who become jealous and controling MILs one day. The egg becomes the chicken so to speak. It would be rather short sighted to believe otherwise. I hope you agree.

That one person is worth defending and another not based on who they are in an estranged relationship would make for an incredible bias of thinking exactly Luminance, and is what we see time and time again when an EP is sharing their experience of the wife of their ES.

I think it is rather just to stand up against any and all sweeping generalisations for anyone wishing this forum to be welcoming and productive. Sure if that does not happen that is a generalisation in and of itself? That one person is worth defending and another not based on who they are in an estranged relationship would make for an incredible bias of thinking.

Why all this talk about dil's I haven't one but can see some might have. They are estranged isn't that enough? Some have a narcissist to try to deal with, nigh on impossible! Some just a selfish, self serving AC. There are many reasons, or not, in some curcumstances.

No one knows both sides of the story BlessedArt unless they have an intimate knowledge of all those involved.

The friends of an EAC only have their side, as do the friends of the EP.

We don't know how well pascal knows the friends she referred too but because a d.i.l. being a major player when a son estranges his parents doesn't suit your narrative, whenever it's mentioned you always argue against it, and you accuse me of being selective!!!

Maybe you should self-reflect a bit on some of the posts you make.

Smileless2012

Doesn't saying that you know far too many estranged parents who remain so in part because they have refused to see not only their own part in it but their children's qualify as gossip Grams?

Be careful or you'll have BlessedArt chastising you if you talk about what you've gleaned from people that you know, and aren't talking about your own personal experience.

Then again if you were, we'd only be privy to 'one side of the story' and that's not good enough either is it. But what am I saying, as long as you're having a go at EP's it doesn't matter does it; anything goes.

Just like your poor husband, our ES's wife hadn't seen a not dysfunctional family up close until she was introduced to ours but she didn't like that either.

As I've said before, it doesn't matter how prevalent coercive control of an AC is as the reason for estrangement; it happens. So rather than treat those who say this is the reason they've been estranged with scorn, how about a little open mindedness.

Rather than assume that all the parents estranged are like your m.i.l., put your bias aside and listen to what's being said. It's really not that difficult. I believe what you've said about your m.i.l. so how about extending the same courtesy to the EP's who post here on GN.

Smileless you’re an adult.

You know full well there nothing objective about “all my friends who are estranged are because of the DIL”. You think someone who says something like that has a clue about both sides of the situation? She knows all her friends’ DILs from all over the country? Their thoughts? The communications between these women and their husbands? Please. All of these completely unrelated women are the cause of men breaking away from their parents? All of them happen to have the same friend in common who is also struggling with their son or daughter? She simply cannot know all of the involved parties well enough for her to make such bold proclamations of blame. She made a sweeping comment gleaned from gossip. For someone who I’ve seen quite often speak about the negatives of generalising on this subject, you sure are selective about when it offends you.

Fwiw, friends can be our mirrors. If I had multiple friends all over the country who were are estranged from their children and partners, I’d self-reflect a bit to see why such a coincidence is even possible.

Did you mean coercive control BTW in your post @ 19.46?

Why should they March; just because you say so?

That's a decision that a couple will make for themselves.

I'd say that of the parent being excluded who found it too hurtful and upsetting knowing that their husband or wife was seeing the AC and possibly GC too, that they've been estranged from.

No. They should put their relationship aside and let the other parent crack on with a relationship with their child and grandchild.

Just like the DIL/SIL having a shitty relationship with that inlaws.