Not fully estranged but gaining depth into what it is

spottybook

An elderly aunt of DH once told me that parents love their children more than the children love them. In some cases this is probably true.

Most likely true. We remember every day from their existance on....they just met us after we are adults. Perhaps that's why?

NotSpaghetti

*Eugenia*... not sure where you are getting therapy at 250.
That's an extraordinary fee!

Sorry, I'm not from the UK so I don't know how it is there. I am going by the before insurance fee in the US...

Cambsnan

I have good relationships with my children but there have been times when I have not liked what they did. I have always told them I will always love them even if they turn into mad axe murderers. I think estrangements always have faults on both sides. We all get it wrong sometimes. Maybe we expect love to be enough. We don’t always treat nearest and dearest with the respect and effort we put into other relationships such as friendships. Forgiveness, a little space and and always open door can heal rifts. Never give up

I completely agree. I believe in forgiveness....apologies need not be huge. Sometimes, no apology, just an acknowledgement of love might just be fine. Or once in awhile, maybe they could try to understand our needs too (we try to understand their needs all the time, but love is a 2 way street, yes?) and once in awhile just let it be. Let us be happy too.

Sara1954

I think that whether you want to believe it or not, some parents do not love their children unconditionally, and therefore don’t deserve love in return
I think it’s wrong to make assumptions about other family dynamics, I’m not saying she did, but the sad story of the young woman who died, may have had a dreadful relationship with her parents, and her friends may have loved and supported throughout her illness, we can never really know.

If you read back on my comment, I acknowledged that I know that and emphasized that minority was not what I was addressing, as estrangment is not limited only to abusive or absent parents. If it was, there would be no discussions or support boards necessary at all. You won't catch parents who do not love their children unconditionally on such forums as these......because they need no support, they are happy as things are.

Elowen33

*It's a mystery to me why other people mean so much more to them than the people who love them in a way nobody else on earth really can, even if they wanted to. Parent/child bond is something so natural and powerful, that's why I feel no other relationship can really replicate or exceed it.*

A persons partner, children and friends can mean more to them than their parents, yet that does not mean they do not love their parents. There is nothing wrong with wanting to spend more time with people other than ones parents.

I hear you. I agree. But, when they start comparing a parent to those friends, acting like the parent comes last in line, if in line at all to those friends, it is something different than just spending time with someone. When they consider the friends as the ones to talk to and shut out the parent completely, that sort of thing. I mean completely; as a parent myself, I only want to know important things, I don't need to know the rest. I don't want to know, actually. But completely being shut out of their life....and that doesn't always mean estranged, but just being left out period, finding out things from other people is not just sad, it's embarrassing when others may tell you things about your own kid you didn't know was going on. Well, let me put it another way, they know your kid from how your kid thinks and presents themselves to those friends. That may be authentic or not, who knows. But the idea you are in the dark completely just feels like a sort of betrayal.

I think that as in all relationships there is a variety of nuance that makes blanket statements problematic.

What one person can handle, another may run for the hills. Neither is wrong.

Just as a couple of adults who make an oath of forever may find themselves divorcing for a myriad of reasons, family relationships may also break down and people may become estranged.

And I think we talk about such things more openly now. I can think of several instances where someone from older generations were disowned by parents for a myriad of reasons: pregnant out of wedlock, being gay, dating someone of the wrong race, religion or social class. It used to be more the parents decision and very hush hush, is the impression I have. One family I knew as a teen, the sister simply was never allowed to be mentioned again, as though she’d never existed.

Cambsnan

I have good relationships with my children but there have been times when I have not liked what they did. I have always told them I will always love them even if they turn into mad axe murderers. I think estrangements always have faults on both sides. We all get it wrong sometimes. Maybe we expect love to be enough. We don’t always treat nearest and dearest with the respect and effort we put into other relationships such as friendships. Forgiveness, a little space and and always open door can heal rifts. Never give up

What a great message! 🥰

Feel so sorry for those with estrangements, to love your AC or AGC and have them blank you must be so terrible to a parent.

Good post Eugenia, I've always thought the same.

I think friends can be hugely supportive, I know we all probably have a few fairweather friends, but I know for sure, that I could have always depended on my true friends far more than my parents.
and the bonus was, no judgement.

If you ignore the perspective of the people who estranged, you will miss the actual reasons why it happened. There are plenty of EAC sharing their perspective online that provide insight. If you aren't willing to listen because you don't like how the answer makes you feel, that's on you.

If my child estranged me and I didn't know why, the first thing I would do is look for a way to truly understand her perspective. Most of the guesses as to why AC do this is based off of what makes the EP feel like the innocent victim. It's too hard to take accountability for some reason. I see that in your post OP.

It's not that I think every single instance is because the parent went wrong, but it's very telling when that possibility is dismissed or downplayed. It's more likely there was an issue in the relationship dynamic. Claiming it was a good relationship is wishful thinking that ignores a huge amount of evidence. It's easier to think EAC is a terrible person.

Oh so you thought about it and realized you did everything right and they are the problem? Good for you I guess.

Good luck.

Sara1954

I think friends can be hugely supportive, I know we all probably have a few fairweather friends, but I know for sure, that I could have always depended on my true friends far more than my parents.
and the bonus was, no judgement.

So they never told you you were wrong?

Your friends, that is.

There seem to be many parents who are estranged by their AC for no good reason, maybe their AC don’t have great mental health or are entitled narcissists themselves.
What I do know is that it’s a current fashion to say your parents are toxic, horrible word that it is. SM encourages the AC to cut out a parent root and branch.It’s an awful scene in my opinion.

What User said

Eugenia,
Friends are people a person generally chooses to have in his/her life and confide in

Parents - you are born in a family without a choice and depending on tbe relationship you have with your parents, you can rely on them or not

Sadly, very different

Ignoring the perspective of those who've estranged or those who have been estranged isn't helpful when discussing estrangement. As you say User If you aren't willing to listen because you don't like how that makes you feel, that's on you.

As for an EP feeling like the innocent victim and it being too hard to take accountability well this can apply to EAC too. I agree User that ^it's very telling when the possibility (that the EP isn't responsible) is dismissed or downplayed^; something we see time and time again here on GN, and your post @12.28 is an example of this.

For 27 years our relationship with our now ES was good. It isn't wishful thinking, it's a fact and unless you know those involved personally, you cannot possibly claim that a huge amount of evidence is being ignored.

It is terrible Oreo, really terrible. Fortunately for us, neither of our only GC were old enough to blank us; being blanked by our son, their father, was bad enough.

It does I agree seem to be a current fashion to say parents are horrible, toxic and narcissists so should be estranged, and this is being encouraged by SM.

We were fortunate to have supportive friends when we were estranged Sara and like you know we can always depend on them.

spottybook

An elderly aunt of DH once told me that parents love their children more than the children love them. In some cases this is probably true.

This is absolutely true. I suppose it’s how nature intended it to be so that offspring are able to carry on after parents are gone. However knowing it is true is sad. I think my AC are fond of me and will always be a big part of my life but I’m not sure they actually feel love for me.

My mother is a true narcissist. It was pure hell growing up. I was hell bent on raising my children without abuse and in a safe and loving home. I thought we did everything right. But my daughter has her own perceptions. There was and is a need in my child that we have not been able to meet.

So the best we can do IMHO is practice radical acceptance. Accept who they are in the here and now. Hope for a more, genuine and loving connection. But don't expect that will happen. And don't dwell on bad feelings for what they have done, even though many times it is unfair. Because that won't change things and it's a heavy emotional burden to carry. Some days those feelings can overwhelm me and I tell myself "I'm going to allow myself to think about this for 10 minutes, and after that I am going push it out of my mind and do something productive". After years of practice it now works.

Smileless2012

A good OP Eugenia. You have touched on what many EP's have experienced and are correct that estrangement can happen to the best of parents, something which is at times forgotten.

What a tragic waste eddiecat , distraught at the funeral of a parent you estranged when it's too late for either of you to make amends.

The OP isn't one of blanket, generalised reasons BlessedArt which is why it resonated with me and I'm sure will resonate with other EP's too. Eugenia has touched on what many of us have experienced because there are a lot of similarities in the experiences of EP's.

There will always be faults on both sides because no one's perfect Iam but as you say, who measures 'the fault'. A 'fault' which for some is the reason to make the decision to estrange, for another could never justify such a decision.

Why, thank you Smileless2012! I appreciate your comment.

I know I came to this forum awhile back because of my own problems, but checking back in here and there, I really have to say what I read is just so awful and shocking.

I have cried at some stories I read here and gotten so angry at others. Angry because of the pain parents here are being put through over petty things.....so many things in life are petty and I don't know why people choose to judge and complain over petty things. Sure, you can be a bit frustrated at what another person does. That can go both ways too.

Pettiness seems to drive a lot of this. People forget what's really important in life, good family, friends ,food, health and love.

Portrait

My mother is a true narcissist. It was pure hell growing up. I was hell bent on raising my children without abuse and in a safe and loving home. I thought we did everything right. But my daughter has her own perceptions. There was and is a need in my child that we have not been able to meet.

So the best we can do IMHO is practice radical acceptance. Accept who they are in the here and now. Hope for a more, genuine and loving connection. But don't expect that will happen. And don't dwell on bad feelings for what they have done, even though many times it is unfair. Because that won't change things and it's a heavy emotional burden to carry. Some days those feelings can overwhelm me and I tell myself "I'm going to allow myself to think about this for 10 minutes, and after that I am going push it out of my mind and do something productive". After years of practice it now works.

Ok, are you saying that you made it a point to raise your kids without abuse, without narcissim on your part, but you are estranged/or close to it???

Oh my, if so, during that time, did you feel confident your kids would never resent you, would be able to come talk to you as adults, never estrange from you? Would be close to you?

I ask because one time my daughter was accusing me of guilt tripping her (I was not and asking sincere questions) and she said she was going to never do to them what I do to her (which was never really explained). She was very confident her kids would never criticise her, either, ever and claimed they will come to her because of the way she plans on raising them, so differently than me.

Is it really true what they say about "the best laid plans?"

Smileless2012

Ignoring the perspective of those who've estranged or those who have been estranged isn't helpful when discussing estrangement. As you say User If you aren't willing to listen because you don't like how that makes you feel, that's on you.

As for an EP feeling like the innocent victim and it being too hard to take accountability well this can apply to EAC too. I agree User that ^it's very telling when the possibility (that the EP isn't responsible) is dismissed or downplayed^; something we see time and time again here on GN, and your post @12.28 is an example of this.

For 27 years our relationship with our now ES was good. It isn't wishful thinking, it's a fact and unless you know those involved personally, you cannot possibly claim that a huge amount of evidence is being ignored.

It is terrible Oreo, really terrible. Fortunately for us, neither of our only GC were old enough to blank us; being blanked by our son, their father, was bad enough.

It does I agree seem to be a current fashion to say parents are horrible, toxic and narcissists so should be estranged, and this is being encouraged by SM.

We were fortunate to have supportive friends when we were estranged Sara and like you know we can always depend on them.

Now I must return the compliment. Your post comes from a very logical, 3 dimensional way of thinking! It's so true what you say. It's like when people tell you "look in the mirror", half the time they themselves have not done the same.

Yoginimeisje

Good post Eugenia, I've always thought the same.

Thank you, truly!

Oreo

There seem to be many parents who are estranged by their AC for no good reason, maybe their AC don’t have great mental health or are entitled narcissists themselves.
What I do know is that it’s a current fashion to say your parents are toxic, horrible word that it is. SM encourages the AC to cut out a parent root and branch.It’s an awful scene in my opinion.

Very insightful, so true! I wonder what can be done to change it all. I know one thing for sure......grandparents should have more rights than they do. Bad enough AC's hurt parents by their attitude, but then use/deprive their children as well should be against the law. If it was against the law, I'd bet we'd see more AC's stop their idiocy knowing they can't torture their parents using their kids.

MercuryQueen

I think that as in all relationships there is a variety of nuance that makes blanket statements problematic.

What one person can handle, another may run for the hills. Neither is wrong.

Just as a couple of adults who make an oath of forever may find themselves divorcing for a myriad of reasons, family relationships may also break down and people may become estranged.

And I think we talk about such things more openly now. I can think of several instances where someone from older generations were disowned by parents for a myriad of reasons: pregnant out of wedlock, being gay, dating someone of the wrong race, religion or social class. It used to be more the parents decision and very hush hush, is the impression I have. One family I knew as a teen, the sister simply was never allowed to be mentioned again, as though she’d never existed.

Part of this comment I cannot fathom and that is a parent disowning their child over getting pregnant or being gay. Now it seems kids disowning their parents for breathing.

fancythat

^People are told today to do what's best for themselves and dump anyone inconvienient^

Who says that?

You know, people who are give you any stress, literally, at all. I have read it all the time, how if someone bothers you too much in some way, like actually expecting a 2 way relationship, then maybe they are "toxic" to you. Self involved people like hearing they don't have to be there for anyone but themselves.