Not fully estranged but gaining depth into what it is

fancythat

Sara1954

I think friends can be hugely supportive, I know we all probably have a few fairweather friends, but I know for sure, that I could have always depended on my true friends far more than my parents.
and the bonus was, no judgement.

So they never told you you were wrong?

That is interesting, isn't it? I think people sometimes mistake "supportive and none judgemental" for what is not caring enough to tell you when you are wrong or making a mistake.

I seriously doubt any of my daughter's friends cried hard every night for over a year straight just laying and thinking about the horrible pain she went through after she got dumped by her husband while pregnant for a young girl. But I did. However, she tells me they were supportive and no judgements.....how lovely.

I myself was super supportive, made no judgements when my brother in law left my sister in law... I'd do things like meet her for lunch, we'd talk, etc.

However, I never shed one tear. Never really felt her pain myself, like I did for my daughter. So being "supportive and non judgemental" is actually pretty easy, really. when you don't care a whole lot.

Well, I mean, I did care some, she is a nice woman and it really sucks my brother in law couldn't stick it out past 18 years, but still.....eyes dry as the desert.

I am not saying friends cannot care deeply. But being supportive and non judgemental really doesn't add up to loving someone so much you feel their actual pain in your stomach at night.

You can’t help how you feel, I will not be that distraught person at my mothers funeral, I won’t even be there, I would consider it to be completely hypocritical, and it won’t mean anything to me anyway.
So that’s how I feel , perhaps it makes me a bad person, certainly makes me an unforgiving person, but it is what it is, I don’t like her, I don’t think she likes me, things are much better like this.

Sara1954

You can’t help how you feel, I will not be that distraught person at my mothers funeral, I won’t even be there, I would consider it to be completely hypocritical, and it won’t mean anything to me anyway.
So that’s how I feel , perhaps it makes me a bad person, certainly makes me an unforgiving person, but it is what it is, I don’t like her, I don’t think she likes me, things are much better like this.

Well I think mainly I was referring to how easy it is for people to be supportive and non judgemental when they are not intimately involved with a person in the sense that they would lose sleep over them.

Example was how I would cry over what happened to my daughter vs. a friend, although I would definately feel sorry for the friend, I wouldn't feel compelled by such intense emotions and thus I suppose, just basically again "support with no judgement" so to speak.

Judgement isn't always what it seems, sometimes it can be a huge, even if incorrect, effort to fix/help the person's problem. It's pretty easy to say and do the dumbest things when you are desperate to make a loved one feel better. I actually cried on the phone when my daughter told me about her husband taking off with a young girl and then after that, I actually tried to make her feel better by saying well it's not the end of the world I suppose......can you believe that????

Omg. Months later I realized it was the end of HER world and I wish I hadn't said what I did. Our emotions make us say and do the most idiotic things....when we are less emotional about something, seems the words of support are more neutral, to the point that it is very common responses aka I'm here for you and anything you need, etc.

Those responses sound so perfect and non judgemental, non involved, and do not try to desperately fix the situation or try to make it seem less horrible.

But more emotional involvement sometimes causes the worst instincts, as you grab at things to figure out how to stop the pain of the person you love.

Unsolicited advice, the wrong advice, good lord it can be a mess! And a lot of that could indeed sound judgemental, depending on one's tone or personality....there are a lot of people who are pull up your bootstraps kinda people, they do the tough love.

So to me, it is really hard to know what is judgement or what is actually an attempt, whether successful or failure, to try and stop the pain of a loved one.

I have learned a lot the last couple years and one thing is....I stop trying too hard to make things better for her. It won't get better. It may become normal but a family has been split and that's it.

Now on what you mention of your mom....I cannot pretend to know what happened, at all, or who is at fault. But, if you feel you don't need or want to go to her funeral, it shouldn't be done, as it would be hypocritical. And to me, I'd rather see someone while I am here; after that, what does it matter...funerals are really not for the person, but the people left behind. I can't judge you as a person or what happened. It's just all a sad situation, period.

Eugenia, nothing happened, and it’s not sad, I’m happier than I ever was when she was part of my life, not everything can be fixed, not everyone wants things fixed.

No Sara, not intending to be at your mother's funeral doesn't make you a bad person; to go would I agree, be hypocritical. You made your decision and your posts on GN show that it was the right one for you.

not everything can be fixed, not everyone wants things fixed I totally agree with this and understand how this can apply to EP's as well as EAC.

Our relationship with our ES can't be fixed and isn't something I would want to try to achieve now. We will never have the peace and happiness we had when we were a part of his life, but the peace and happiness we've achieved has been hard won and not something we could risk losing all over again.

Judgement isn't always what it seems, sometimes it can be a huge, even if incorrect effort to fix/help the person's problem this is so true Eugenia because what can often be misconstrued as a judgement isn't judgement at all, it's what used to be called advice.

Reading some of the responses here on GN, it's as if 'advice' has become a dirty word!!! Don't offer advice and/or an opinion on anything to do with your GC because they're not your children. 'Keep it zipped'; 'say nothing'; 'keep your opinions to yourself' or risk being seen as overbearing at best, toxic at worst.

I received plenty of unsolicited advice from my mum and GM when our boys were babies. Yes at times it was extremely annoying and 'out dated' but it came from love; from their love for me and our boys.

I agree that advice does not seem to be welcomed by adult children about grandchildren these days. It is so hard not to say something though when you know you are right. I'm not saying grandparents are always right but we have experience to offer and it's sad when it is rejected. I also find it sad to hear younger people talking disrespectfully about their parents. It seems to be a Western thing. My friend who comes from China said that old people are respected there and I know it is the same in India. My friend said that when she goes back to her own country she is highly respected by her nieces and nephews.

Eugenia I think £40 to £80 ish is usual here- though I'm sure it can be more in some areas of the country or
specialist types of counselling...
Some charities offer it cheaper.

If you are in America I'm definitely less surprised though!

One of my daughters regularly asks my opinion about things, but I’d never offer it otherwise, but regarding most things we are on the same page, she raises her family much as she was raised.
The other one wouldn’t ask my opinion on child raising, because she parents in a different way, but regularly asks my opinion on other matters.
I never barge in with my opinion unless I’m asked, even then I tread very carefully.

^Reading some of the responses here on GN, it's as if 'advice' has become a dirty word!!! Don't offer advice and/or an opinion on anything to do with your GC because they're not your children. 'Keep it zipped'; 'say nothing'; 'keep your opinions to yourself' or risk being seen as overbearing at best, toxic at worst.
^

I would agree with this.
I had been thinking I had not been on GN enough to make sure I was picking up the right vibe on here,

Well I think we should keep our opinions to ourselves, unless asked to do otherwise.
A lot of our opinions are outdated, and we owe it to our daughters to credit them with enough common sense to get on with the job themselves, whilst always being available if necessary.

It's a recurring themeSkydancer and fancythat.

IMO that's the problem, why should offering advice be seen as
barging in?. I feel sorry for GP's who constantly feel the need to tread very carefully. That for me isn't a sign of a healthy relationship anymore than it would be if an AC felt they had to do the same.

Some of my mum's and GM's opinions and advice were outdated, but not all of them; they did manage to successfully manage to raise two children of their own.

Advice doesn't have to be followed if disagreed with, even if it was asked for but I don't understand why a GP, mother or m.i.l. should be demonised for giving it.

Smileless, I think it’s wise to tread with care, maybe because I’ve never been great at accepting advice, always wanting to do things my way.
But i sometimes say things like, it might be worth considering….. or maybe it’s time to think about…..
But much as I love them, they are not my children, not my call.

But I do have a dear friend fifteen years older than me, so getting on a bit now.
All through my children’s growing up years, I was constantly asking her advice, and she was happy to give it whether I wanted it or not.
If the children wanted to do something I would say I’d talk it over with X, they seemed to accept this.
She certainly wasn’t backwards in coming forward, and was quite comfortable criticising my children, or telling them off
I love her to bits, because everything she said and did was out of kindness.

I love her to bits, because everything she said and did was out kindness that made me Sara and think about what a shame when loving parents, and I know that's not all parents,
feel unable to just be themselves for fear of the consequences .

Sara touched on a very good point about how as a society we found disowning children for a variety of reasons perfectly acceptable, and now when offspring exercise their rights to choose who and what makes their lives happier or less, there is a problem. Everyone is entitled to live the one life we have as happy as we can, regardless of what is socially acceptable as far as power dynamics are concerned. That our society has shifted to being more acceptable to individuals owning their autonomy is a sign of progress.

As far as advice is concerned, no should be demonized for giving welcomed advice, whether it is followed or not. However, anyone who feels entitled to keep offering when it is clearly not welcome has a pathologic need to control. It shows that this individual has not the self-awareness to recognize their own lack of authority in a situation. I offer my own children as much advice as they seek, but because I recognize their autonomy as a God-given right I have no qualms about keeping my opinions to myself unless asked. I do not have dominion over these adults, so it is not hard for me. Being offended at not being able to dictate how our adult offspring raise their children is a problem of the gran, not the young parents. Masking it as merely giving advice is disingenuous if you get upset about being told the recipient doesn’t need it. Having grace about being informed advice is not needed matters more than the other party being receptive.

Parent/child bond is something so natural and powerful, that's why I feel no other relationship can really replicate or exceed it

This isn't always the case though. It's normal for you, it's normal for me but it really isn't the case for lots of people unfortunately and some people are just cruel

The trouble is Smiless, it’s a different relationship, maybe a lot of people have that with their parents, but I find it hard to imagine
My friend is everything, surrogate mother, kind auntie and very dear friend.
She criticised everything from the state of my car, to my spending habits, but I have never once taken offence, because I know she is very fond of me, and I would, and have been very supportive of her when she needed it.
I would love to have had a mother like her

I don't agree that as a society we found disowning children for a variety of reasons perfectly acceptable BlessedArt and I'm certainly not aware that there was ever a 'trend' for doing so with readily available 'advice' as to how to go about it on the contrary, it wasn't something openly discussed even between family members.

Smileless: That’s ridiculous to even argue. As Sara has clearly stated, children were regularly disowned for having babies out of wedlock, marrying different races, being gay etc. We’re not going to sit here and rewrite history through rose-tinged lenses. It happened. It was normal. It was horrific, but it was normal. The lack of internet and open discussion back then will not erase that fact. Shame didn’t allow for those discussions. Times have changed and younger generations don’t feel as much shame in discussing family issues.

Just because the internet exists now and people can communicate openly and anonymously and share experiences doesn’t mean it’s okay to dismiss individual choices as a trend. That’s insulting by itself. Societal shifts happen. Exercising one’s autonomy to choose a relationship is no more a trend than women being in the workplace demanding equal pay for equal work. It is but one of many societal shifts we can expect to not reverse course. Descriptive language and internet terms may be trendy, but the shift to choosing one’s own close relations is absolutely not. Reductive language such as words like “trends” isn’t going to magically make the younger generations reverse course on independence anymore than bashing feminism made women reverse course on insisting on equality. People will continue to choose relations that are not as detrimental to their mental health (i.e friends) over blood for the foreseeable future if those individual situations require it. That’s a societal shift.

That's so funny BlessedArt, posting about rewriting history when you've not only rewritten what someone's posted on this thread, but attributed it to the wrong poster!!!

On page one MercuryQueen posted I can think of several instances ....., that's several instances where AC were disowned, not that AC were regularly disowned.

Yes it happened, yes it was horrific but I've never seen any evidence that it was normal.

Page two of this thread, not page one.

People estrange for all sorts of reasons, but it very often the mothers of AC who previously had a very close relationship with their AC who then find it very difficult, when a new partner comes along for that child, to accept that they have to move over a bit to allow space for that partner to come in, and that there is now someone else in their life who is just as important, if not more so. They want to maintain the same relationship with their AC, not realising that they now have to hand over some of that closeness to the new partner. It’s a control thing, and loosening the grip on control is the key. This was certainly the case with my own estrangement, how frustrated and angry I got with my son when my influence on his life wasn’t as much as before, and it was only when I finally woke up to this, apologised and totally changed my behaviour, that we reconciled.
I only offer advice now if asked - they are perfectly entitled to live and parent their way, not mine. Any parent who says that they gave regular unsolicited ‘advice’ but at the same time have no idea why they are estranged from their AC need look for the reason no further, I believe.

It's good when posters are able to talk about their own experiences stillawipp, and you've said that your anger and frustration when your son married was an issue which resulted in your estrangement.

I had an extremely close relationship with our ES prior to being estranged but accepting his wife was never an issue, quite the opposite in fact. I never expected our relationship to remain the same and TBF I don't think he did either. It was his wife who was unable to accept the relationship he had with me and his father.

Giving regular unsolicited 'advice' is I agree foolish and maybe one of the reasons for being estranged but for me, that's a far cry from believing/thinking that you must keep your opinions to yourself and for advice to be seen as judgemental.

It may well be a far cry for you, Smileless2012, but maybe it wasn’t for your son or his wife? That’s my point really - it’s not for us parents to decide how much of our opinions they should have to take…

I've already said it was our ES's wife who had an issue with our relationship stillawipp and it wasn't us voicing opinions, it was jealousy pure and simple.