Near Estrangment but confused about something

MarieElla

I think you came on here to be vindicated, not to seek advice.
Put simply, due to the evidence you have provided I see your daughter's side.
She is right in reducing contact with you and in protecting her children.

No, I asked if anyone else had the experience or had heard of such behavior......that's not seeking advice, that's trying to see if this is a common thing.

I had, the frustration of wrongful hurtful accusations. And no, she's not right. She's sick since her husband left and I'm an easy target because he is not.

She couldn't get enough of me with the grandkids before this.

So, you think somehow she magically realized one day I was bad? That she decided the verbal abuser toward me (her dad) was actually ok for it and it became my fault?

I tend to think, maybe she lost her husband and clung to her son....got jealous because he gave me too much attention, I guess. My grandson did seem to like me a lot from the beginning, which my daughter thought was cool at the time.

Perhaps she didn't want to lose him, although that would have never happened on my watch, I always supported her view and rules......even during the times she was overly harsh with him and he was going through a mom's not nice phase.

But to want to take him from me completely by scaring him into thinking he's not safe with me in some way?

That's cruel and it's sick.

But seems your good with it.

icanhandthemback

Smileless2012

Of course we only hear one side of the story icanhandthemback. GN has only heard my side and yours and without a doubt our ES and his wife's version would be different to mine, and your mother's would be different to yours but does that mean we shouldn't be believed?

Thank you Madgran.

True but you can take some views on how the person engages with Gransnet. In this particular case, the OP seems to be very entrenched in her views. As I say, I started off empathetic because estrangement is absolutely horrible for the people concerned but as time has gone on, I see a different impression to my first one.

I could say the same about you. Clearly you view other mothers to be like yours.

icanhandthemback

Starfire57

icanhandthemback

You may have apologised to your daughter, Starfire57 but you have proved on here by your posts that you really don't mean it. Your daughter will know that too. To be honest, from what I've read on here, I am surprised that your daughter hasn't gone no contact. You may not mean to but it all sounds like 'poor me' and everything your daughter does, says or thinks is wrong. You appear to believe you have no responsibility at all for your poor relationship with your daughter and that doesn't bode well for it improving.
I have a difficult relationship with my daughter and some of that is definitely because I stayed in an abusive marriage far longer than I should have done. We have had periods of estrangement or tension. Counselling can be very useful at those times even though my daughter wouldn't dream of coming with me. Even though I can't control the relationship to keep it on track, I can control my response to it but sometimes it needs just a little extra help to get my head around it. Maybe you should try for that little bit of help too with a professional.

Sorry, but no, I do not need to mean it, other than out of empathy for her. I really doubt she ever felt scared.

More like anger. Misdirected rage over her husband. Again, I think it's some bonding thing with her friend that has resurfaced since then.

The only thing she said, which wasn't an example of any act of abuse but more of a statement, is this......kids need to feel safe and we were not safe.

She didn't say SHE felt unsafe. It was like she rehearsed it from the child psychology playbook I'm sure her friend uses a lot.

And she spoke for my son when she claimed that. Only thing he says about it is, dad's got issues and it's pretty annoying. Never felt unsafe.

Because if we were, I would have called the cops on him.

I am a tolerate person, but not that tolerate. He would have seen jail.

You sound like my mother. We had a chaotic and abusive childhood, much of it by her but also by her frequent change of partners. She can't see her part in any of it. I give her leeway because I can see she was damaged and I feel I am responsible for my own happiness so I won't let her ruin it.
My sister challenges her about her parenting and Mum continues saying she was a great parent despite all the examples she gives her to the contrary. My mother also blames my sister's marriage breakup on the reason my sister has turned against her. It wasn't the marriage breakup per se, it was the fact my sister recognised the damage done to her by her parent and realised that her relationships wouldn't stand a chance without addressing the root of the problem. That went as well for my sister as it has for your daughter.
I started off feeling empathy for you but all your posts have just shown where the problem probably lies. Maybe your daughter isn't going the right way about addressing her issues but she obviously hasn't had the role modelling to do that. Maybe her 'mad' friend has had some influence but she probably doesn't have healthy relationships to see that.
My mother always blamed my husband for ruining our relationship where she dominated and I followed for an easy life. It took a functional human being with a healthy respect for boundaries, a clear means of resolving issues and a respect for each other for me to see what a good relationship looked like. I didn't go no contact with my mother but learned to quietly stand firm against her dominance and unreasonable behaviour. I also never left my children alone with her because she would have conversations with them which were inappropriate and undermining.

From your description of your mother here, I am not at all like her. For one thing, she's dominate. I'm not. That would be my husband.

But, you wouldn't know that now, would you because you don't know me, you don't know anything about me.

So I hope you realize, your judgments mean absolutely nothing to me. You have no clue what I've done or been through.

And surely, you must agree, that inappropriate and undermining conversations with kids goes both ways. Grandmas and their mothers neither one should be doing this. Yet somehow that's ok in your book, that my daughter does that to me. It's sick.

Smileless2012

Of course we only hear one side of the story icanhandthemback. GN has only heard my side and yours and without a doubt our ES and his wife's version would be different to mine, and your mother's would be different to yours but does that mean we shouldn't be believed?

Thank you Madgran.

True but you can take some views on how the person engages with Gransnet. In this particular case, the OP seems to be very entrenched in her views. As I say, I started off empathetic because estrangement is absolutely horrible for the people concerned but as time has gone on, I see a different impression to my first one.

Of course we only hear one side of the story icanhandthemback. GN has only heard my side and yours and without a doubt our ES and his wife's version would be different to mine, and your mother's would be different to yours but does that mean we shouldn't be believed?

Thank you Madgran.

Smileless2012

Starfire posted @ 10.03 on December 23rd on the first page of this thread BlueBelle, that the court system where she lives would have given custody of the children to their father as she had no means of supporting them financially.

I agree Starfire that there a lot of assumptions being made here but what we and you do know, is that your D's told you how she was affected by the atmosphere she experienced while growing up.

This may well have come to the surface when her husband left because his leaving would have made her feel vulnerable and unprotected; feelings of vulnerability and needing protection that she experienced in childhood.

Just because you didn't see any outward signs that she was feeling this way as she was growing up, and it's taken years for her to articulate these feelings, isn't evidence that she never felt this way.

I do think you are splitting hairs when you say she didn't say she didn't feel safe but said kids need to feel safe and we were not safe as for me, the 'we' refers to her and her brother.

One reason why she's struggling with the breakdown of her marriage maybe that despite the verbal abuse you were subjected too and she witnessed, you remain married while for her the relationship she had with her husband she believed to be healthy, failed.

I struggle to comprehend why a parent would allow there to be any contact with a GP they truly believed to be unsafe, and I find it disturbing that she is telling her children that you are a bad mum/GM while simultaneously providing contact.

These young and vulnerable children should not be drawn into any issues she has with you, and IMO she is very foolishly risking damaging her relationship with her own children if she persists with this, especially if your GD is telling you she doesn't believe her own mother.

She has told you quite rightly that kids need to feel safe while enabling contact with someone she doesn't consider to be safe.

As I and others have suggested, interact with your GC on their terms. Don't worry about whether or not your GS makes eye contact. That maybe a phase he's going through or maybe because of what mum's telling him but either way, there's nothing you can do about it apart from what you've already done, which was to tell your D what the children have told you.

I do understand your desire to defend yourself but my advice with the children is to play it down and change the subject as quickly as possible.

FWIW I believe that your D was and continues to be affected by her childhood and I also believe as I said earlier, that you are being scapegoated and there has been a degree of projection from her friend.

A very wise and balanced post Smileless

This thread is a textbook on validating why it is sometimes necessary to go no contact. Starfire is showing that being a mother doesn’t make one a reasonable person. The level of belligerence displayed here is likely a much more mild form of what her daughter has to deal with. Starfire, if you care about more than your own wants and needs give them the space they need. This is unhealthy.

Smileless2012

What IMO is terrible for all newcomers coming on here are some of the responses the OP is receiving.

For the record I am not her supporter Allsorts, I'm offering support to someone I believe needs it and trying to help her.

I don't know why some find it necessary to reiterate their disbelief and criticisms and can only assume that doing so must be for their benefit because it clearly isn't benefiting the OP.

'If you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all' springs to mind.

It is possible to disagree and point out what you see as the 'error of someone's ways' without being unpleasant.

I also never left my children alone with her because she would have conversations with them which were inappropriate and undermining precisely icanhandthemback. So why is the OP's D facilitating contact with her mother and her children, and why is she having inappropriate conversations with her own children about their GM?

It took me some time before I felt able to withstand the pressure of leaving my child to my mother's influence. It was a learning curve and I got there in several stages. We are only hearing one side of the story. Maybe the daughter gets pushed into those conversations from reports back from the children who very often say these things innocently. It was a minor thing that made me take the decision to always be with my children when they were with my mother but it really was the straw that broke the camel's back. Having tried to combat the damage for years about my mother's comments to them about my husband, my parenting, etc., my son described what he'd had in his lunch box. Every day he had a very healthy lunch but on this specific occasion, he had specifically asked for a sausage roll. Alongside that he had fruit and veg but you would have thought I'd fed him poison from the comments my mother made. He was only at her house for 5 minutes whilst I went home to get him an apple.
For years I side stepped the issue of why my mother no longer had access to the children on her own because I knew there was no point me explaining; she couldn't see it. My mother was incredibly hurt by the way I felt because she couldn't understand why I'd put up with her behaviour for years but wouldn't now. I think the OP is in the same position.

That's a good point ShropshireGal, that doesn't however explain why she's telling the children that their GM is a bad mum and GM. Something which the vast majority of posters here are conveniently disregarding but which for me is pertinent when considering the OP's D's role in all of this.

Smileless2012

Starfire posted @ 10.03 on December 23rd on the first page of this thread BlueBelle, that the court system where she lives would have given custody of the children to their father as she had no means of supporting them financially.

I agree Starfire that there a lot of assumptions being made here but what we and you do know, is that your D's told you how she was affected by the atmosphere she experienced while growing up.

This may well have come to the surface when her husband left because his leaving would have made her feel vulnerable and unprotected; feelings of vulnerability and needing protection that she experienced in childhood.

Just because you didn't see any outward signs that she was feeling this way as she was growing up, and it's taken years for her to articulate these feelings, isn't evidence that she never felt this way.

I do think you are splitting hairs when you say she didn't say she didn't feel safe but said kids need to feel safe and we were not safe as for me, the 'we' refers to her and her brother.

One reason why she's struggling with the breakdown of her marriage maybe that despite the verbal abuse you were subjected too and she witnessed, you remain married while for her the relationship she had with her husband she believed to be healthy, failed.

I struggle to comprehend why a parent would allow there to be any contact with a GP they truly believed to be unsafe, and I find it disturbing that she is telling her children that you are a bad mum/GM while simultaneously providing contact.

These young and vulnerable children should not be drawn into any issues she has with you, and IMO she is very foolishly risking damaging her relationship with her own children if she persists with this, especially if your GD is telling you she doesn't believe her own mother.

She has told you quite rightly that kids need to feel safe while enabling contact with someone she doesn't consider to be safe.

As I and others have suggested, interact with your GC on their terms. Don't worry about whether or not your GS makes eye contact. That maybe a phase he's going through or maybe because of what mum's telling him but either way, there's nothing you can do about it apart from what you've already done, which was to tell your D what the children have told you.

I do understand your desire to defend yourself but my advice with the children is to play it down and change the subject as quickly as possible.

FWIW I believe that your D was and continues to be affected by her childhood and I also believe as I said earlier, that you are being scapegoated and there has been a degree of projection from her friend.

I believe this is why OP describes her daughter getting up to follow if OP is alone with her children. She may consider them "safe" so long as they are with her, but not to be alone with OP. She may be contemplating full estrangement but trying to keep some supervised contact at the moment. We all know what an enormous decision it is to estrange a parent so I'm sure her daughter is trying to find a middle way to avoid total estrangement while keeping her children safe. Meanwhile, she is trying to address the issues with OP but I'm afraid it does appear it is falling on deaf ears and sadly full estrangement may follow.

What IMO is terrible for all newcomers coming on here are some of the responses the OP is receiving.

For the record I am not her supporter Allsorts, I'm offering support to someone I believe needs it and trying to help her.

I don't know why some find it necessary to reiterate their disbelief and criticisms and can only assume that doing so must be for their benefit because it clearly isn't benefiting the OP.

'If you can't say something nice then don't say anything at all' springs to mind.

It is possible to disagree and point out what you see as the 'error of someone's ways' without being unpleasant.

I also never left my children alone with her because she would have conversations with them which were inappropriate and undermining precisely icanhandthemback. So why is the OP's D facilitating contact with her mother and her children, and why is she having inappropriate conversations with her own children about their GM?

If all of us who thinks this is a windup, which I challenged her on more than a week ago, stops posting, it can continue with just her and her supporter.
This is terrible for all newcomers coming on here, they must think estrangement has driven us mad.

Starfire57

icanhandthemback

You may have apologised to your daughter, Starfire57 but you have proved on here by your posts that you really don't mean it. Your daughter will know that too. To be honest, from what I've read on here, I am surprised that your daughter hasn't gone no contact. You may not mean to but it all sounds like 'poor me' and everything your daughter does, says or thinks is wrong. You appear to believe you have no responsibility at all for your poor relationship with your daughter and that doesn't bode well for it improving.
I have a difficult relationship with my daughter and some of that is definitely because I stayed in an abusive marriage far longer than I should have done. We have had periods of estrangement or tension. Counselling can be very useful at those times even though my daughter wouldn't dream of coming with me. Even though I can't control the relationship to keep it on track, I can control my response to it but sometimes it needs just a little extra help to get my head around it. Maybe you should try for that little bit of help too with a professional.

Sorry, but no, I do not need to mean it, other than out of empathy for her. I really doubt she ever felt scared.

More like anger. Misdirected rage over her husband. Again, I think it's some bonding thing with her friend that has resurfaced since then.

The only thing she said, which wasn't an example of any act of abuse but more of a statement, is this......kids need to feel safe and we were not safe.

She didn't say SHE felt unsafe. It was like she rehearsed it from the child psychology playbook I'm sure her friend uses a lot.

And she spoke for my son when she claimed that. Only thing he says about it is, dad's got issues and it's pretty annoying. Never felt unsafe.

Because if we were, I would have called the cops on him.

I am a tolerate person, but not that tolerate. He would have seen jail.

You sound like my mother. We had a chaotic and abusive childhood, much of it by her but also by her frequent change of partners. She can't see her part in any of it. I give her leeway because I can see she was damaged and I feel I am responsible for my own happiness so I won't let her ruin it.
My sister challenges her about her parenting and Mum continues saying she was a great parent despite all the examples she gives her to the contrary. My mother also blames my sister's marriage breakup on the reason my sister has turned against her. It wasn't the marriage breakup per se, it was the fact my sister recognised the damage done to her by her parent and realised that her relationships wouldn't stand a chance without addressing the root of the problem. That went as well for my sister as it has for your daughter.
I started off feeling empathy for you but all your posts have just shown where the problem probably lies. Maybe your daughter isn't going the right way about addressing her issues but she obviously hasn't had the role modelling to do that. Maybe her 'mad' friend has had some influence but she probably doesn't have healthy relationships to see that.
My mother always blamed my husband for ruining our relationship where she dominated and I followed for an easy life. It took a functional human being with a healthy respect for boundaries, a clear means of resolving issues and a respect for each other for me to see what a good relationship looked like. I didn't go no contact with my mother but learned to quietly stand firm against her dominance and unreasonable behaviour. I also never left my children alone with her because she would have conversations with them which were inappropriate and undermining.

Well I'm not aggravating her Sago but can see that others are.

No one has to read and comment on this thread and unless someone's prepared to offer sensible advice rather than having a go at Starfire, I can't see the point in them contributing.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

I agree Smileless2012.
OP, you asked in your original post "Does anyone know what this is?". Well, you have had approximately 100 posts telling you what it is. Whether or not you choose to listen to them is entirely down to you, but you won't get anywhere until you do.

It doesn't matter one iota what you think, or what you remember or what you believe, your daughter is telling you differently, & until you listen to what she is saying, nothing will change.

Put yourself in her shoes & stop thinking that this is all about you. Really listen to what your daughter is trying to tell you. It is completely irrelevant whether or not you see it the same way, & until you understand that you will never repair the situation.

Can I suggest we stop commenting on this thread.

We are just aggravating the OP and it’s going nowhere.

She was hoping to find a few flying monkeys here and she hasn’t.

Starfire posted @ 10.03 on December 23rd on the first page of this thread BlueBelle, that the court system where she lives would have given custody of the children to their father as she had no means of supporting them financially.

I agree Starfire that there a lot of assumptions being made here but what we and you do know, is that your D's told you how she was affected by the atmosphere she experienced while growing up.

This may well have come to the surface when her husband left because his leaving would have made her feel vulnerable and unprotected; feelings of vulnerability and needing protection that she experienced in childhood.

Just because you didn't see any outward signs that she was feeling this way as she was growing up, and it's taken years for her to articulate these feelings, isn't evidence that she never felt this way.

I do think you are splitting hairs when you say she didn't say she didn't feel safe but said kids need to feel safe and we were not safe as for me, the 'we' refers to her and her brother.

One reason why she's struggling with the breakdown of her marriage maybe that despite the verbal abuse you were subjected too and she witnessed, you remain married while for her the relationship she had with her husband she believed to be healthy, failed.

I struggle to comprehend why a parent would allow there to be any contact with a GP they truly believed to be unsafe, and I find it disturbing that she is telling her children that you are a bad mum/GM while simultaneously providing contact.

These young and vulnerable children should not be drawn into any issues she has with you, and IMO she is very foolishly risking damaging her relationship with her own children if she persists with this, especially if your GD is telling you she doesn't believe her own mother.

She has told you quite rightly that kids need to feel safe while enabling contact with someone she doesn't consider to be safe.

As I and others have suggested, interact with your GC on their terms. Don't worry about whether or not your GS makes eye contact. That maybe a phase he's going through or maybe because of what mum's telling him but either way, there's nothing you can do about it apart from what you've already done, which was to tell your D what the children have told you.

I do understand your desire to defend yourself but my advice with the children is to play it down and change the subject as quickly as possible.

FWIW I believe that your D was and continues to be affected by her childhood and I also believe as I said earlier, that you are being scapegoated and there has been a degree of projection from her friend.

Is Starfire57 genuine, or a yes but wind up merchant

I think you came on here to be vindicated, not to seek advice.
Put simply, due to the evidence you have provided I see your daughter's side.
She is right in reducing contact with you and in protecting her children.

Starfire with every post you show more of your character which is coming across rightly or wrongly as ‘ I know best’ You ask for advice, but have poo poo’d every insight given to you.

We can only give general advise, we don’t know you or your daughter, we only know what we are given by you and that is NOT a humble or understanding character willing to see problems from both points of view
You have blinkers on, you are not seeing anything other than your way. Do you have mental health problems, are you on the autistic spectrum these are just possible explanations for your narrow band of thinking

Can I ask again why did you say you couldn’t divorce your husband because he would get the children ???

Because bug won't get my post deleted....but just use your imagination a bit.

Allsorts

Starfire fired off 11 very long similiar posts so why cannot you see her frane of mind and stop asking questions, do you need another 8 pages of the same. Can you imagine her daughters position. no contact is only way to keep your sanity.

Well, idk. I mean, I come here asking if anyone else has heard of such accusations from an adult child with not one shred of example and then suddenly all the assumptions from people who don't know me from Adam come pouring in.

I suppose I didn't need to explain, but perhaps was hoping still for a few examples of what I experienced to see if it was common and maybe what to do about it.

But noooooooooooo, let's not do that, let's just bash someone when they are down.

Well, at least some here were a bit more nice and made some actual good points. Only a few though.

So, if anyone has had this same experience, I'd be glad to know. Otherwise, bug off.

icanhandthemback

You may have apologised to your daughter, Starfire57 but you have proved on here by your posts that you really don't mean it. Your daughter will know that too. To be honest, from what I've read on here, I am surprised that your daughter hasn't gone no contact. You may not mean to but it all sounds like 'poor me' and everything your daughter does, says or thinks is wrong. You appear to believe you have no responsibility at all for your poor relationship with your daughter and that doesn't bode well for it improving.
I have a difficult relationship with my daughter and some of that is definitely because I stayed in an abusive marriage far longer than I should have done. We have had periods of estrangement or tension. Counselling can be very useful at those times even though my daughter wouldn't dream of coming with me. Even though I can't control the relationship to keep it on track, I can control my response to it but sometimes it needs just a little extra help to get my head around it. Maybe you should try for that little bit of help too with a professional.

Sorry, but no, I do not need to mean it, other than out of empathy for her. I really doubt she ever felt scared.

More like anger. Misdirected rage over her husband. Again, I think it's some bonding thing with her friend that has resurfaced since then.

The only thing she said, which wasn't an example of any act of abuse but more of a statement, is this......kids need to feel safe and we were not safe.

She didn't say SHE felt unsafe. It was like she rehearsed it from the child psychology playbook I'm sure her friend uses a lot.

And she spoke for my son when she claimed that. Only thing he says about it is, dad's got issues and it's pretty annoying. Never felt unsafe.

Because if we were, I would have called the cops on him.

I am a tolerate person, but not that tolerate. He would have seen jail.

Starfire fired off 11 very long similiar posts so why cannot you see her frane of mind and stop asking questions, do you need another 8 pages of the same. Can you imagine her daughters position. no contact is only way to keep your sanity.