Near Estrangment but confused about something

Smileless2012

People don't have to read Starfire's posts and don't have to respond if they don't want too so if anyone's bored with this thread, there are plenty of other threads to go on.

You do appear to be banging your head against a brick wall at the moment Starfire so I suggest that you take a break from contacting your D and wait for her to contact you.

You now know that the shouting that went on impacted negatively on her childhood and I think I'm right in thinking that you've apologised for this, so it's time for a line to be drawn under this. If she's not prepared to accept your apology there's nothing more you can do.

Regarding other accusations, if you believe them to be unfounded, the best course of action is to talk about where these have come from; why does she believe things happened when you're convinced they never did. Doing so is not simply dismissing what she's saying, on the contrary it demonstrates your concern that she has these 'memories' and could show you that something you'd never considered, or even forgotten about did indeed occur.

I do believe though that the best course of action is to take a step back and wait for her to contact you and also wait for her to raise anything from her past, rather than asking her to do so.

Thank you once again, for sticking up for me Smileless2012. I think this is what I need to do, is just let it go with her.

Now I'm so hurt over my grandson, as he does not interact with me much like he used to; he doesnt' cuddle or hug me like he used to, and it's not his age because he will still cuddle and hug his mom, sister, and just about anyone else.

Today he was over and he was in the room asking me to get something for him out of the closet; we talked briefly and I noticed he would not make eye contact with me while he was talking to me! It was weird so I joked about, looking where he was looking, positioning my face in his line of sight and he finally said what? I said I noticed you were talking to me but not looking at me at all. He just said oh. But he's never done that before. It's like he's avoiding me now.

She has cut down on visits quite a bit too.

I can only hope somehow he will revert back to trusting in me again, because I do get the feeling he does not in some way, no doubt from all her talk about me.

But with not being around as much, plus the talk, I just wonder if she has just turned him from me.

I am starting to feel invisible, don't see him much, etc.

I don't know if an 8 year old can see through anything.

I am hanging on right now, in pain, hoping something will change.

But really, if I am to be turned against or just basically be ignored by my grandson, then I'm not sure if I even want to try to avoid total estrangement anyway.

I hope somehow this will reverse. I know it's too late with my daughter and that carries enough pain but the one thing that was making it all worth it was my grandson.

He even used to admonish his grandpa (my husband) when he would say something negative about what I was doing, he literally stood up for me, would call my husband's judgements of my actions or words out.

Nothing horrific, just the daily assumptions that I was not doing things the way I was "supposed" to according to my husband.

Neither of my kids in their entire lives stood up like that to him. So my grandson really won my favor and we were close but now my daughter has ruined that for me.

It's like I'm not allowed to be loved without someone else coming along and spoiling it for me....

I'm pretty down about it. I just hope somehow I'll get back in favor with my grandson again one of these days.

If not I'm pretty done with my family, maybe even my husband. Maybe not my son, though, he does seem to still want to be in my life and care.

My grandson means so much to me; he took to me early on and always defended me, loved to spend time with me and cuddle, give me hugs, like he still does now, but not with me.

I lost her. I don't' want to lose him. Not sure what I can do.

He is only 8 but that's what I'm afraid of, very impressionable, I think, at that age.

Starfire's D doesn't appear to be holding her father in anyway responsible DL which under the circumstances suggests that the OP is to a certain extent being scapegoated.

If the OP's daughter feels aggrieved that her mother didn't leave her father therefore removing her from the situation, I can see that an apology together with an explanation would be warranted DL. As far as I'm aware though, this has already been given by the OP.

Smileless I do believe though that the best course of action is to take a step back and wait for her to contact you and also wait for her to raise anything from her past, rather than asking her to do so

I agree

I might be missing something here, but why would abuse victims (mother and daughter) in this case be apologising to each other?

Surely it should only be the abuser (father, husband) that needs to apologise?

Victim blaming isn’t good. 🤷‍♀️

my problem is, I know all I would have to do is agree with her and say I'm sorry

My advice - do this then.
Take responsibility for her pain and be sincere. You now know your lack of protection negativity affected her... If it is your wish to reconcile please keep saying it until you believe yourself.

Wishing you well.
Good luck.

People don't have to read Starfire's posts and don't have to respond if they don't want too so if anyone's bored with this thread, there are plenty of other threads to go on.

You do appear to be banging your head against a brick wall at the moment Starfire so I suggest that you take a break from contacting your D and wait for her to contact you.

You now know that the shouting that went on impacted negatively on her childhood and I think I'm right in thinking that you've apologised for this, so it's time for a line to be drawn under this. If she's not prepared to accept your apology there's nothing more you can do.

Regarding other accusations, if you believe them to be unfounded, the best course of action is to talk about where these have come from; why does she believe things happened when you're convinced they never did. Doing so is not simply dismissing what she's saying, on the contrary it demonstrates your concern that she has these 'memories' and could show you that something you'd never considered, or even forgotten about did indeed occur.

I do believe though that the best course of action is to take a step back and wait for her to contact you and also wait for her to raise anything from her past, rather than asking her to do so.

*this thread, rather.

How about showing your daughter this post?
It sounds drastic but it may bring you clarity.

Well said Crossstitch but I cannot see her letting go, you can see how exhausting it must be. The only ways is no response.

PLEASE can you give this a rest now? There is surely nothing else to be said and you are just coming out with the same old stuff, on and on and on.
Looking at the posts, I can see that I am not the only one getting a bit bored with the constant variations on the original theme. When you reply, it’s not just a line or two, it’s paragraph after paragraph saying the same thing in different ways. If there is a drastic change, please tell us by all means. Otherwise perhaps you could take a bit of a break for a while and get yourself together.
This is meant kindly.

Smileless2012

If you'd read not just the OP but Starfire's other posts Unity, you would see the concern she's expressed about her D's close friend. You would also see that she has apologised for the past but these aren't the only things we've been told.

Her D is telling her children that their GM is a bad person, and her attempts to address the issues her D has have been met with accusations of paranoia, and a refusal to try joint counselling/therapy which may be beneficial to them both.

Why does any woman stay with an abusive husband/partner MarieElla? I have no idea but many do and she's already explained why she didn't leave when the children were young.

Your situation with your D is solvable Starfire if you are both willing to at least try to come to terms with what has happened, and find a way forward with your relationship.

Your D also needs to try and come to terms with the ending of her marriage. As DiamondLily posted earlier marriages break down and your D needs to be considering the impact this has had on her children, not just herself. She also needs to keep this separate from any issues she has with you; you are not responsible for her husband's abandonment.

I thank you once again. You are correct. This whole thing finds me crying or angry and I'm tired of it.

I think too, my problem is, I know all I would have to do is agree with her and say I'm sorry. But it's not the truth, and if I admit an untruth, how would it be for me then, if that untruth was still in fact used against me? But the difference then would be, it becomes true and she would be justified.

That's the thing, if I admit an untruth, it becomes the truth. I'm not sure that's the right thing to do.

I have tried apologizing anyway. It is almost like she wants an admission to be justified in her actions towards me and the grandkids. Apologies aren't accepted; only admission to the lies, which like I said, I would almost do if I thought it would help..

In fact, that's why I spent an entire afternoon texting her and earnestly asking for examples, so I might address them, explain and then apologize if necessary.

She couldn't give me anything, and that's what led to my original posting because it was so maddening not to get one answer, that I wondered how many other parents get this sort of frustration in communicating with their kids!

Thank you for your thoughtful answers to all this.

I'm really not sure what to do. I sure wish I had a clue as to what was happening when it was happening. Hindsight isn't that helpful now.

I'm walking away from this now, sometimes people can't be helped

keepingquiet

This is very sad.
I don't have any answers I'm afraid, but I would be tempted to accept that parents aren't perfect and apologise for making her feel unsafe.
Then see where that goes.
There is so much pressure on parents these days to appear to be prefect that they often don't realise that isolating their children is just another form of abuse.

I can try that.....again. I've done that, but I guess another try wouldn't hurt. Thanks.

It is just so untruthful, most of this. Like I said, she was around for some of it, but we are not talking about the kind of shouting matches one might imagine, like in the movies or a TV special.

Short, loud bursts of "Why did you leave the light on in there" and "Are you that stupid?" Or "you are a liar" or "You had better call them in the morning and fix it" Or "stop talking" etc.......many angry insults hurled at me.

There were no shouting matches; I was not scared for my safety, no calling the police, etc.

This was abusive, degrading attitude towards me. I'm the victim.

I never fought back. It never escalated. I would go off and cry; not in front of my kids.

Not one time did my kids express or even look like they were in distress. If they had been, I would have done something.

I should have done something about it for my own sake. I didn't realize how impressionable kids are.

However, I had a great relationship with both of them; one even my MIL commented on.

Except for that last year of high school with my daughter, when she became best friends to this girl. But I just chalked it up to teen stuff.

And it got better anyway. The friend moved to another state. My daughter and I were like best friends for years.

This went on all the way up until her husband left. The best friend has been in constant contact with my daughter; has come to visit her several times and my daughter visited her too. The friend got her degree and works with abused children.

Coincidence?

The question remains, why was I a good mom and grandma just 6 years ago, from my own daughters mouth and my son in law, and now I am an abusive bad mom and grandma??

How does that magic work?

Allsorts

I am sorry to say I think this post is not genuine it is purely to disrupt.

I tend to agree now I have come back and read it again today.

Starfire57

Well, thanks to some of you for support and I was ust looking for other examples.

I guess this isn't a problem anyone can solve really, unless they know some sure fire way of deprogramming someone from outside influences.. But doubtful.

I can’t believe that after all this time you are still on here banging on about how shamefully you believe you have been treated. You have been given loads of advice, by many of us, which you have ignored.
May I suggest that, instead of going on and on over the same grievance, you take the advice and try and turn your life around.
There is a limit to how many times we can re-phrase the advice in the hope you might see sense and act on it.
I wish you well but much of this is down to you!

Growing up in a household where abuse is happening is child abuse. It can cause long term mental health issues. I feel comforted that your daughter has help and support through this in her friend who understands the different forms abuse takes.

Starfire If you cannot make this situation better for yourself and leave it, perhaps let your daughter go from it. She cannot heal while you continue to deny the truth and place the blame elsewhere. Some of your comments are concerning in themselves on how you speak of your daughter, her support system and your grandchildren too. I wish I had been your friend in the early days of your marriage, I would have done for you what your daughter's friend is doing for her.

Don't let it be too late for her. Don't let her normalise abuse and allow that to mean she may choose unsafe relationships and her children, your grandchildren, go through what she did.

If you'd read not just the OP but Starfire's other posts Unity, you would see the concern she's expressed about her D's close friend. You would also see that she has apologised for the past but these aren't the only things we've been told.

Her D is telling her children that their GM is a bad person, and her attempts to address the issues her D has have been met with accusations of paranoia, and a refusal to try joint counselling/therapy which may be beneficial to them both.

Why does any woman stay with an abusive husband/partner MarieElla? I have no idea but many do and she's already explained why she didn't leave when the children were young.

Your situation with your D is solvable Starfire if you are both willing to at least try to come to terms with what has happened, and find a way forward with your relationship.

Your D also needs to try and come to terms with the ending of her marriage. As DiamondLily posted earlier marriages break down and your D needs to be considering the impact this has had on her children, not just herself. She also needs to keep this separate from any issues she has with you; you are not responsible for her husband's abandonment.

Are you willing to accept any responsibility at all for the way your daughter is feeling? Why do you talk of deprogramming? This seems like a pretty typical response to growing up in an abusive household.

This is very sad.
I don't have any answers I'm afraid, but I would be tempted to accept that parents aren't perfect and apologise for making her feel unsafe.
Then see where that goes.
There is so much pressure on parents these days to appear to be prefect that they often don't realise that isolating their children is just another form of abuse.

Well, thanks to some of you for support and I was ust looking for other examples.

I guess this isn't a problem anyone can solve really, unless they know some sure fire way of deprogramming someone from outside influences.. But doubtful.

MarieElla

So why are you still with him?

I am too old to start over and at least we are not contributing to the back and forth houses the kids have to visit due to divorce. No need for another. But now my husband sees the part he played in this, granted the friend and husband really are to blame, but, his attitude didn't help! Now he's working on it.

But he can't fix it.

I asked him how come 6 years ago I was considered a great mom by her, she loved going places with me and grandson, and thought I was a super cool Gma, if I was this paranoid predatory abuser all along?

Gee, what happened to all that for 37 years, up until 6 years ago?

So why are you still with him?

Unity

'While yes things were not great the way I was treated, the idea I allowed or did any kind of abuse to the kids I loved more than anyone or anything is sickening to me and so far from the truth its almost laughable.'

But you did. Inadvertently no doubt, but you allowed your child to grow up in an environment where abuse was present, and are still with the abuser. That is what is a called an ACE (Adverse Childhood Experience) and can be very damaging to children.
I agree that therapy would be really useful for you, to come to terms with what happened and begin to see things from your daughter's point of view).

I have already apologized for the past. But she won't let it go. I think when I told her about my grandkids saying she told them I was bad , she got caught being what they call toxic to little kids and decided to scapegoat that onto her childhood. A diversion, a denial, claimed my grandson just interpreted stuff as "bad" but he used that word and so did his sister. Then she proceeded to say she wouldn't put up with paranoia, as though I only imagined they sai that? Cmon..
that's gaslighting folks. I am old but not stupid.

Unity

The op was a victim of her husband, but her daughter was a victim as well. Growing up in a home where a child witnesses abuse is itself abusive.

Yes, if it is abusive that's on my husband for not shutting his big mouth.