Near Estrangment but confused about something

DiamondLily

icanhandthemback

I don't think anybody thinks it didn't happen DiamondLily, it is the lack of ownership that is grating.

No. I used to work in Child Protection (in the UK) and I know all this impacts on children.

But one parent is sometimes the ‘victim’ of an abuser. The only one to blame here is the abuser.

Blaming the abused just doesn't sit right. It’s not always easy for a victim to leave their abuser. 🤷‍♀️

I was abused by my ex and it was all watched by my daughter who has been left scarred by that experience. I take responsibility for putting her in that position and staying for so long. I don't accept I have no blame. Obviously there was a time when I couldn't see the wood from the trees but the first time it happened, I made excuses for his behaviour. I'm an intelligent person, anything I'd ever read suggested this was the nature of the beast and would only get worse. At some point in those early days, I should have got out and run for the hills. I don't think it should be beyond a person to accept their decisions affected their children and offer their apology even if they weren't the one doing the abusing. They may not have intended harm but it is a consequence. That said, I don't think you should be beating yourself up for the decisions you made. Most people act out of the best intentions but you can say you're sorry and listen to your child without judging them for their feelings.

icanhandthemback

I don't think anybody thinks it didn't happen DiamondLily, it is the lack of ownership that is grating.

No. I used to work in Child Protection (in the UK) and I know all this impacts on children.

But one parent is sometimes the ‘victim’ of an abuser. The only one to blame here is the abuser.

Blaming the abused just doesn't sit right. It’s not always easy for a victim to leave their abuser. 🤷‍♀️

Starfire

It pains me to say this, because I feel so guilty, but my children were abused.

Both my husband and I are responsible.

I didn’t realise what was happening.

My husband, who I chose to stay with, was verbally abusive as he was struggling to control his alcohol addiction, I worked evenings and he looked after them, not terribly well.

Why my children only chose to tell me when they were no longer needing “looking after” in their late teens, I don’t know.

It was a stressful and horrible time.

Yet I remember some lovely family times too.

I’ve apologised to my children for not doing something about things.

They’ve forgiven me. We live civilly together, they’ll never really forgive their dad because he cannot/will not discuss it, he denies it happened.

He was brought up by a physically, mentally and emotionally abusive father and a mentally unwell mother.

Whatever happened to your daughter, it’s real to her and has clearly damaged her.

You don’t have to remember specific incidents, you need to tell her you believe her and that you’re sorry you didn’t realise.

Maybe then you can both become closer, she can heal and your relationship with your DGC can continue.

There are many many reasons women don’t get divorced.

I don't think anybody thinks it didn't happen DiamondLily, it is the lack of ownership that is grating.

anotherGran

I think it’s odd that she will not give an example of the abuse she feels she suffered.
But come on, are you trying to tell everyone on this board that you didn’t know your husband yelling at you all the time was gonna scare your small child. And this husband only ever yelled at you and not your child right????

To be fair, that happens. Sometimes a man can take his negative feelings out on his wife, but is an absolute star with his kids.

However, obviously, it affects the children as well.

I think it’s odd that she will not give an example of the abuse she feels she suffered.
But come on, are you trying to tell everyone on this board that you didn’t know your husband yelling at you all the time was gonna scare your small child. And this husband only ever yelled at you and not your child right????

Smileless and DiamondLily

Smileless2012

Just wanted to add Starfire that your D may also feel she's failed as a mum because the children's father has left, and maybe something she fears will be an issue for her children as they get older.

Well, if the daughter doesn’t let go of her bitterness towards her ex, and doesn’t try to sort out a truce with OP, there may well be an issue with her own kids down the road.

I split from my ex after 28 years, but he was still their Dad so I said virtually nothing about it all. My marriage split wasn’t their problem.

He was hoist by his own own petard, eventually, so serves him right, but I still never say much. I just roll my eyes, fume silently, and try to keep the family show on the road by becoming his “friend” again after 25 years. 🙄

On we go. 😂

That was to MarieElla but the quote disappeared!

Yes!

'Clueless biddies' writes someone who is so clueless and emotionally immature she can't even begin to see her own role in her daughter's current issues!!
Sadly, until you take some ownership your daughter will continue to distant herself from you.

Just wanted to add Starfire that your D may also feel she's failed as a mum because the children's father has left, and maybe something she fears will be an issue for her children as they get older.

Yes we are well, thank you DL.

These situations always need both sides to be willing to either repair the relationship of when that's not possible to do what you and your mum did, and put the interests of the children first.

Yes you are quite ruthless but you're also fair and that's what matters .

Yes, they are Smileless - but both sides need to know when to put the past to bed, and when to shut up - especially when children are involved.

As you know, I’m quite ruthless with estranging people who are causing damage.

But, in that instance, a truce was best.

Hope you’re well 😉

You're welcome Starfire and I'm glad that you feel better going forward. It's not always the case but sometimes slow and steady can win the race and remaining calm isn't always easy, but helps too.

I agree that your story's inspiring DL. Weaponising children is always wrong and they are the ones who suffer the most when it happens.

DiamondLily.

It sounds like you handled your issues with your mom so beautifully!

That's what decent people do.

How lucky she and your kids were to have you.

Your story is inspiring. Thank you for sharing it.

Smileless2012

Ego not only refers to someone's sense of importance but also their sense of self esteem so yes Starfire in terms of self esteem, confidence in her own ability, self worth and her self respect these will have taken one hell of a knock.

Not knowing your D it's hard to say but I don't think when she looks at you she assumes you got some sort of vindication. It's more likely that she sees that despite the long term issues in your marriage you remain married, while the marriage she believed to be better than yours, failed.

That would be a double whammy wouldn't it and maybe something you can consider. Maybe you could try to get her to engage with you specifically about the breakdown of her marriage. It would I believe be extremely beneficial to you both and especially for you to understand 'where her head's at' so to speak.

For me it's the breakdown of her marriage that's the crux of the issue rather than her childhood which she maybe focusing on so she doesn't have to address 'the elephant in the room'; her ex. You have said that the problems in your relationship began when her husband left.

Rather than deal with possibly feeling that she failed as a wife, her focus is on the woman she's cast as a failed mother.

Wow. Just.wow. You are making so much sense to me.

I do think everything you said might just be the nail on the head.

Thankyou, you have helped me a bit. I do feel better going forward now.

I just cannot understand how someone like you could be estranged, from anyone! I so wish your son comes back, and soon. Thank you.

Starfire57

Ok, to the three latest posters.....

I never said she had an EGO, but asked Smileless,2012..... not you clueless biddies, if perhaps that might be why she turned on me after we were having such a good relationship.

I think I'm dealing with people who have literally no reading comprehension, except Smileless and a couple others who can actually read.

Yep.....just no clue but give lousy advice anyway. Which, I do not need btw.

Go take your own projections about your parents and place them in a spot where the sun doesn't shine. I mean, it's obvious you are projecting.

Why not just go hassle a cancer victim, seems that would be fulfilling to people like you.

My mother and I had a very difficult relationship, throughout my childhood.

However, once I had my children, she proved herself to be the best granny ever. I couldn’t have chosen better.

But - we reached a sort of silent truce with each other. I never once ran her down to my children. Their relationship with her was different to my relationship with her.

She, in turn, never once ran me down to my children.

We both understood that weaponising children was the wrong way to go.

It worked.

My mother died 12 years ago, and my children are now in their 40’s.

My children were heartbroken when she died - they loved her to bits.

They don’t know, to this day, and will never know, what I really thought of her.

This can be achieved, but takes goodwill on both sides.

Perhaps your daughter, and you, should forget the past a bit, stop trying to point score off of each other, and be what you both should be to those children.

Ego not only refers to someone's sense of importance but also their sense of self esteem so yes Starfire in terms of self esteem, confidence in her own ability, self worth and her self respect these will have taken one hell of a knock.

Not knowing your D it's hard to say but I don't think when she looks at you she assumes you got some sort of vindication. It's more likely that she sees that despite the long term issues in your marriage you remain married, while the marriage she believed to be better than yours, failed.

That would be a double whammy wouldn't it and maybe something you can consider. Maybe you could try to get her to engage with you specifically about the breakdown of her marriage. It would I believe be extremely beneficial to you both and especially for you to understand 'where her head's at' so to speak.

For me it's the breakdown of her marriage that's the crux of the issue rather than her childhood which she maybe focusing on so she doesn't have to address 'the elephant in the room'; her ex. You have said that the problems in your relationship began when her husband left.

Rather than deal with possibly feeling that she failed as a wife, her focus is on the woman she's cast as a failed mother.

Ok, to the three latest posters.....

I never said she had an EGO, but asked Smileless,2012..... not you clueless biddies, if perhaps that might be why she turned on me after we were having such a good relationship.

I think I'm dealing with people who have literally no reading comprehension, except Smileless and a couple others who can actually read.

Yep.....just no clue but give lousy advice anyway. Which, I do not need btw.

Go take your own projections about your parents and place them in a spot where the sun doesn't shine. I mean, it's obvious you are projecting.

Why not just go hassle a cancer victim, seems that would be fulfilling to people like you.

If you cannot reflect and accept your daughter's account of things, she will continue to distant herself and the children from you.
The way you write about the situation sounds like you dislike her. Perhaps she dislikes you.
I can imagine a very uncomfortable atmosphere when you're together.
And grandparents have no rights to be in their grandchildrens' lives.
You may have to do some work on yourself to earn it.
I hope she keeps them away from your husband too.

Totally agree with the post above.
It would seem that your daughter's break up has brought all the trauma she suffered as a child to the surface (which is no doubt why she has changed, as you put it, she does seem to be bringing this is up just to spite you). You however, just seem annoyed, and selfishly worried about how this might effect you, rather than showing any level of concern for your child.
Someone asked earlier why she was letting you spend time with your grandson if she didn't believe you were safe to be around, and I agree. Perhaps the best thing would be for there to be space between her family and you, at least until you can approach this situation with some humility and introspection.

Perhaps, it's her ego?
Still looking at her faults,
I m so sorry but I had a lot of sympathy for you at the start but with every argumentative post of yours it has waned everyone except Smileless has been knocked down with a stick by you in defending your side. You can’t seemingly take any constructive criticism.
Your daughter is obviously cautious of your grand parenting role, taking into account the fact that she didn’t always feel safe in her own childhood, which you believe but don’t accept

You are still married ( sounds unhappily) to the man who caused these feelings and that must feel like a slap in the face
Every time you try to accept something she says (and it appears you do try) it is slapped down with a ….but

Stop fighting her, Listen more, stop blaming her . Accept this is how she feels not why, where or how, just accept and ask her calmly and quietly and humbly how you can go forward.

Smileless2012

Starfire posted @ 10.03 on December 23rd on the first page of this thread BlueBelle, that the court system where she lives would have given custody of the children to their father as she had no means of supporting them financially.

I agree Starfire that there a lot of assumptions being made here but what we and you do know, is that your D's told you how she was affected by the atmosphere she experienced while growing up.

This may well have come to the surface when her husband left because his leaving would have made her feel vulnerable and unprotected; feelings of vulnerability and needing protection that she experienced in childhood.

Just because you didn't see any outward signs that she was feeling this way as she was growing up, and it's taken years for her to articulate these feelings, isn't evidence that she never felt this way.

I do think you are splitting hairs when you say she didn't say she didn't feel safe but said kids need to feel safe and we were not safe as for me, the 'we' refers to her and her brother.

One reason why she's struggling with the breakdown of her marriage maybe that despite the verbal abuse you were subjected too and she witnessed, you remain married while for her the relationship she had with her husband she believed to be healthy, failed.

I struggle to comprehend why a parent would allow there to be any contact with a GP they truly believed to be unsafe, and I find it disturbing that she is telling her children that you are a bad mum/GM while simultaneously providing contact.

These young and vulnerable children should not be drawn into any issues she has with you, and IMO she is very foolishly risking damaging her relationship with her own children if she persists with this, especially if your GD is telling you she doesn't believe her own mother.

She has told you quite rightly that kids need to feel safe while enabling contact with someone she doesn't consider to be safe.

As I and others have suggested, interact with your GC on their terms. Don't worry about whether or not your GS makes eye contact. That maybe a phase he's going through or maybe because of what mum's telling him but either way, there's nothing you can do about it apart from what you've already done, which was to tell your D what the children have told you.

I do understand your desire to defend yourself but my advice with the children is to play it down and change the subject as quickly as possible.

FWIW I believe that your D was and continues to be affected by her childhood and I also believe as I said earlier, that you are being scapegoated and there has been a degree of projection from her friend.

"One reason why she's struggling with the breakdown of her marriage maybe that despite the verbal abuse you were subjected too and she witnessed, you remain married while for her the relationship she had with her husband she believed to be healthy, failed."

Ok, this is the most insightful thing on this whole board. She did used to compare her "choice" in husbands to mine, all the time.

But I never took it in a bad way; I was happy she seemed to have found someone better than I did and I would always tell her that.

Perhaps, it's her ego? Like you said, she thought hers was more healthy but it completely broke down and maybe she is embarrassed deep down?

I would never, ever throw that in her face, although she used to throw my choice in my face all the time. So I don't understand, Does she look at me and assume I got some sort of vindication?

I mean, all I got was pain, for her.

"I struggle to comprehend why a parent would allow there to be any contact with a GP they truly believed to be unsafe, and I find it disturbing that she is telling her children that you are a bad mum/GM while simultaneously providing contact."

""These young and vulnerable children should not be drawn into any issues she has with you, and IMO she is very foolishly risking damaging her relationship with her own children if she persists with this, especially if your GD is telling you she doesn't believe her own mother."

There again.....perfect. Thank you for being a voice of reason.

Allsorts

Starfire fired off 11 very long similiar posts so why cannot you see her frane of mind and stop asking questions, do you need another 8 pages of the same. Can you imagine her daughters position. no contact is only way to keep your sanity.

Imagine my sanity , being accused of awful things without one shred of the actual reality of the situation.

I did say, it was maddening. Because it is, this may be how people feel when they are gaslighted. I don't know if this is being done on purpose to me or what, but it does make you feel insane.