How do I help my sister to stop feeling like a victim?

more irritated by some generalisations and some obviously goading comments indeed Madgran.

FWIW I think you've done precisely the right thing InRainbows. You've told her what your boundaries are as well as reassuring her of your love and support.

I would wait for her to contact you as she hung up on you, and try not to worry if that doesn't happen anytime soon. She'll need time to digest what you've said.

I hope in time you will see a positive change in your sister's attitude to her estrangement and to you her sister, who she's lucky to have looking out for her.

InRainbows

I have spoken to my sister this morning.

I let her know that, I will be continuing my relationship with my niece and that I am not willing to be a go between in any way and that includes punishing my niece for her choice by not speaking to her.

I have let my sister know that I love her and I am there for her but the relationship is between her and her daughter and my relationship with her daughter is seperate.

I have also told her that the same applies to my children and my sister is not to try and influence my children in any way against my niece and that she has me and does not need to lean on them for support.

I think she was a bit shocked because she hung up on me but this is the only way I think that I can stop her from losing other family members in this too while she recovers and is focused so completely on how she feels.

I did not suggest counselling or support groups again as I now realise that needs to be a choice she makes for herself.

I don't know whether any label applies to my sister, I can see how it might apply and it could explain some of the difficulties but I don't think I need to say that to her so she won't be harmed by the conversations here. I can just use the techniques advised to protect myself perhaps from losing too much sleep or letting her continue to try and force my hand. I can simply end the conversation if she tries.

I sincerely thank all of you for your help. I know some of you have become upset with some of the advice but I haven't. So please take comfort in that. It has all helped me find a way forward.

You have done brilliantly by speaking to her honestly and openly.I hope things work out in the way you would like them to.

It is good that you have not been upset by any of the advice. Im not sure others have been "upset"; more irritated by some generalisations and some obviously goading comments.

For you as you move forward 💐

I have spoken to my sister this morning.

I let her know that, I will be continuing my relationship with my niece and that I am not willing to be a go between in any way and that includes punishing my niece for her choice by not speaking to her.

I have let my sister know that I love her and I am there for her but the relationship is between her and her daughter and my relationship with her daughter is seperate.

I have also told her that the same applies to my children and my sister is not to try and influence my children in any way against my niece and that she has me and does not need to lean on them for support.

I think she was a bit shocked because she hung up on me but this is the only way I think that I can stop her from losing other family members in this too while she recovers and is focused so completely on how she feels.

I did not suggest counselling or support groups again as I now realise that needs to be a choice she makes for herself.

I don't know whether any label applies to my sister, I can see how it might apply and it could explain some of the difficulties but I don't think I need to say that to her so she won't be harmed by the conversations here. I can just use the techniques advised to protect myself perhaps from losing too much sleep or letting her continue to try and force my hand. I can simply end the conversation if she tries.

I sincerely thank all of you for your help. I know some of you have become upset with some of the advice but I haven't. So please take comfort in that. It has all helped me find a way forward.

Fascinating.

Even as InRainbows provides further information about her sister that clearly indicates she has a serious personality disorder, many users still wish to have their heads stuck in the sand.

Maybe they see too much of themselves in the sister and hate being called out indirectly. Maybe they want to think it's normal for a child to cut contact or be of retirement age with no close friends.

Sad.

eazybee

I have few suggestions as to how to improve the situation between In Rainbows and her sister other than to continue what she is doing already, which is maintaining contact with both mother and daughter and resolutely refusing to take sides.

I would also advise not being too influenced by a poster who claims extensive knowledge of a certain rather fashionable condition and is applying a stringent diagnosis without having the slightest first-hand knowledge of the lady and her daughter in question .

Well said.

Phew. Thought that common sense had left the building until the last few posts appeared. Agree with them.
Had to leave the thread earlier because it felt like I was banging my head against a brick wall.
Never been on a thread like this where it is hijacked so completely.
Is very strange.

Be kind, she's hurting

Judging by the lengthy and biased responses you can see who have severe problems accepting that they are the problem, yet they label others.

I have few suggestions as to how to improve the situation between In Rainbows and her sister other than to continue what she is doing already, which is maintaining contact with both mother and daughter and resolutely refusing to take sides.

I would also advise not being too influenced by a poster who claims extensive knowledge of a certain rather fashionable condition and is applying a stringent diagnosis without having the slightest first-hand knowledge of the lady and her daughter in question .

MarieElla

Smileless2012
PoppyseadBread is offering advice based on well researched information.
I'm not sure why you're being critical of her helpful posts.
You are seeing it from a different angle as your son has estranged you.
As suggested before, why not start your own thread about your particular situation?

No, she's using Appeal to Authority Fallacy. PoppyseadBread is claiming that's "she's well read" while we have no other proof of her claims.

It sounds as if your Sister has forgotten, that being a Mum is demonstrating unconditional love for your children.
I have had disagreements with my 3 grown up children over the years, some resulting in us not being in contact for some time. But during this time, I have never for a minute stopped loving or caring for my children. Most importantly during these absences, I would continue to send texts to them in order to keep the line of communication ajar so to speak. Let them know I was thinking of them and respect that our opinions may not align, however it’s good to talk despite our differences. We are of different generations and are entitled to voice our differences, I believe this is healthy but there is no need to fall out permanently. My advice is continue to maintain your contact with your niece, and suggest your Sister shows some maturity, respect and unconditional love towards her daughter whilst keeping communication ajar. At the end of the day she has to ask herself do I want my daughter in my life and if she does she knows what she has to do.

InRainbows, your question is how you stop your sister feeling like a victim, and from what I can tell, I think the answer to that is probably that you can’t. She is adamant that she is one and I don’t think anything you say can change that, or her.
What you can control, though, is how you engage in the situation. It may just be a case, at the moment, of deciding which relationship is the most important one for you & your own wellbeing/peace of mind, and focusing on that one for a while.

I will say that there are different types of narcissism, mainly covert and overt, so being outgoing or not aren't indications of narcissism.

But what does really stand out is:

- No long term friends
- Drama wherever she goes
- Never admitted fault
- And the fact she would never want to be seen with her sister suggests she is lacking in empathy (by not caring at all how it could have made you feel).

I know how uncomfortable that feeling may be. I looked up to my mom for most of my childhood, but she too had no lasting friendships and never said sorry.

I remember when I was very young, we once threw a Christmas party at our house with a bunch of her friends and their kids. To my recollection, it was a fun time and there was no drama at the party. The following year or so I asked why we didn't have another party and she said it was my completely my fault.

Imagine a grown woman telling her preadolescent child that it's completely their fault none of her friends want to see her again. Looking back it's completely insane, but at the time I had no choice but to believe it.

Now that my brain is developed and I'm a lot wiser, I truly see her for who she is, and it's not pretty. It's actually the complete opposite of what I used to see back when I didn't know any better.

Making such realizations is like putting a puzzle together. You start with the edges and suddenly a bunch of other pieces start falling into place, and what used to feel confusing and unusual (such as being blamed for my mother's dying friendships) suddenly makes perfect sense.

I don't know how best to describe my sister. She doesn't have any long term close friendships. She tends to join groups for things and then there will be some sort of drama and she will do something else after a while. We both have faith but she has changed church a few times which, I have never done so we aren't in many social groups together. I don't tend to go out as often either. I'm more of a homebody. She is very outgoing and a big personality. Very opinionated. Has never to my memory ever admitted to being wrong about anything. She can be quite aloof. Not very patient I would say. When I was young she would never have been seen dead with me.

I feel uncomfortable saying that because I have always looked up to her.

I also want to bring up one other point.

If the sister feels comfortable making completely out of line demands, imagine how comfortable she must feel making demands for her own child.

If you think it's unreasonable to demand that an aunt and niece cease communication, imagine what kind of unreasonable demands her daughter must have faced and probably continued to face until she chose to estrange.

I know that's a common pain point for children dealing with parents that behave like narcissists. For those kinds of parents, it's difficult (and in some cases impossible) to see their children as individuals instead of their property.

Her sister's demands and expectations of others are completely out of line and totally unreasonable. Her sister also leaves no room for an earnest conversation, that's why lying is more than valid in such a situation.

They can be small white lies or lies by omission, but I do agree that lies in general are messy. My recommendation would just be to disengage completely so you are not in the position where you have to lie in the first place. But given that it's her sister, complete disengagement may not be a realistic option.

Just know that truth and honesty has no real benefit or value like you normally would expect (with a well-adjusted person).

There's nothing condescending about my response, she's asked for suggestions which I have given her.

Why would I be really uncomfortable with the idea that a parent could be estranged due to their narcissism? It happens.

Well I find the majority of your points if view very counterproductive and not based in reality so we'll just have to agree to disagree on that wont we.

Lying is the worse thing InRainbows can do. Lies have a way of being found out and that could do irreparable damage to her relationship with her sister.

I feel like given all of the information we have, it's a much bigger assumption to think that the sister is not highly narcissistic.

The label will most certainly help InRainbows, because if she was fully aware of what she's dealing with, she wouldn't be asking "how to help her sister to stop feeling like a victim" because she would realize there is no helping her sister. Best you can do is disengage.

The advice you give, telling the sister stuff "firmly and kindly" is almost condescending. It assumes that InRainbows hasn't already tried something so simple and basic within this past year and a half. And stating it one last time will change nothing at all.

You seem really uncomfortable with the idea that a parent could be estranged due to their narcissism.

I don't mean to argue, but your viewpoint is actually very counterproductive and not based in reality. Does it matter if the sister is actually a narcissist or not when she is behaving exactly like a narcissist would in this situation? The advice for dealing with her is all the same.

Disengage as much as you can and lie if it makes interactions with her easier.

Perhaps your sister is simply highly strung and not easy to please InRainbows. I'd advise against you being led down a path that labels your sister as a narcissist by people who don't even know her.

Good grief it's even been suggested that your niece may be one and you too; the latter being explained away as humour .

She may not have been a good parent but as I said earlier on this thread, there's nothing you can do about now. Suggestions have been made about how you may handle this with your sister. Firmly and kindly telling her that you will continue your relationship with your niece; tell her you don't like the way she's treating you and why and then as suggested by BlessedArt tell her you no longer wish to discuss the matter with her and if she raises it, change the topic. This and for me BlessedArt's entire post is worthy of consideration.

FWIW I think you should put any thoughts about your sister being a narcissist, something you don't appear to have ever considered until it was raised here, at least to one side if not out of your mind altogether.

Will labelling her improve the situation? I don't think it will.

i can understand how you feel, my sister fell out with my mum 5 years ago, her adult grandchildren and the great grandchildren have all been kept away from her, she was already enstranged from another daughter and i am the only one left, she still talks about but not as often, it has taken 5 years, the first year i would get up to 20 calls a day, going over the same thing again and again, i have health problems that leave me more or less housebound and in constant pain, i had to be straight with her and tell her that it has happened and unless she want's to go and talk to her she needs to leave it alone, she won't reach out to her as she keeps saying it was not her fault...knowing my mum i am not to sure about that. she is 83 and still fit and active, she drives and does her own shopping. she had to change her will so that i can sort everything including telling all that side of the family they are not welcome at the funeral. it is draining, is there any way you could talk to the daughter or is it a lost cause.

As someone with personal experience of being the sibling of someone who has fallen out with their offspring, I can say the shortest path to your peace here is likely disengagement. Even well-intentioned intervention or explanation can backfire quite easily. Ultimately your sister and her daughter are adults. Adults need to navigate their own relationships.

Your sister is upset and grasping for control by trying to control you in a sense. However, you are completely capable of carrying on a relationship with your niece without continuing to explain yourself to your sister. Engaging these conversations with her is signaling that her request is rational and therefore worthy of debate. It isn’t. You’ve already made it clear that you don’t discuss the conflict with your niece. Just reassure your sister that you love and care for her. Continue to be compassionate toward them both. Whether or not your sister accepts the reality here is up to your sister. You cannot force her to view this rationally any more than she can force you to stop seeing your niece. If I were you I’d redirect the conversation every single time. “Sister I love you both and will not choose between my family” or “I don’t feel comfortable discussing this anymore”. Change the topic. Rinse and repeat. You can’t “fix” your sister’s mentality. All you can do is ensure you don’t place yourself in the middle, making it worse.

InRainbows

I don't see any signs that my niece is that way, she is thoughtful and kind and very different to my sister. I do take on board that my sister may not be coping well with this or other situations too but I am concerned that she has not been a good parent. I didn't think much about how much time my niece spent with me growing up as anything other than being happy to spend time with her but now I am looking at it through a different lens.

I just want to say that your niece's decision to estrange did not come lightly. She must have went through a lot of pain, heartache and disappointment to finally come to the conclusion that the relationship with her mother is unsalvageable.

No-one wants to be an orphan, just as no-one wants to be blind, deaf or disabled. So children will try anything and everything to have a functional relationship with their parents. Cutting off a parent is only done as a last resort, after you have exhausted all other options.

Now with your sister, you are witnessing first-hand the kind of behavior that pushed your niece to estrange from her own mother. And keep in mind that kind of behavior is infinitely worse to endure as a child rather than a sibling.

Not only is there a natural power imbalance between a parent and child, but you are also denied proper parenting, which puts you at an incredible disadvantage in this world.

I think I will come back to this. Please don't think I don't appreciate everyone trying to help but I need some time to process my thoughts.

I don't see any signs that my niece is that way, she is thoughtful and kind and very different to my sister. I do take on board that my sister may not be coping well with this or other situations too but I am concerned that she has not been a good parent. I didn't think much about how much time my niece spent with me growing up as anything other than being happy to spend time with her but now I am looking at it through a different lens.