How do I help my sister to stop feeling like a victim?

Oh dear, old hands again

Any suggestions we make on how to resolve things are met with anger and defensiveness.

She will not go to counselling nor will she use this or the other online support group I found her in the hopes of getting some support from those in her situation who may have lots of good advice.

She has now started to demand that we do not speak to her daughter until her daughter speaks to her even though I have explained that her daughter says nothing I'll of her and we do not discuss her.

I just don't know what to do

Your sister must be heartbroken, I can’t even imagine how it must feel to be estranged from an adult child and with each passing month and year it must feel worse rather than better, as the chance of a reconciliation moves further away.
But I understand how very difficult this must be for yourself and the rest of the family who just want to help your sister cope with this situation and move on with her life albeit not the life she imagined.
I am not estranged but went through a bad situation in my younger years when my loved ones tried to persuade me to reach out for help, for a long time I didn’t until I was ready to do this for myself. Your sister also will probably reach out when she is ready, am afraid you can’t force these things.
However, you must kindly insist to your sister that your relationship as the aunt of her DD is not up for negotiation, and that you will continue to speak to her as usual.
Hoping you can navigate your way through this storm and am sure others with experience of estrangements will be along soon 💐

Just do what you’re doing. Still speaking with your niece, still conversing with your sister and other family members.

This is between your niece and your sister and no-one else

Your sister's daughter has escaped her control. Her life is out of control.

To compensate, she's trying to control you (and whoever else "we" encompasses). It won't work.

The only thing your Sister can change is herself. Until she realises that, nothing will mend.

The message you /"we" need to send is that you can't change her life, or her daughter. It's hard, but it's true.

"Stop looking back. Don't keep telling US what to do.

Focus on you, and your future. What are YOU going to do? "

Stop making suggestions InRainbows; if and when your sister is ready for help and support she'll seek it out.

Firmly and with kindness, tell her you will not stop talking to your niece and I say with kindness, because it can be very hard knowing that a close friend or relative is in contact with the AC whose estranged you and if they're seeing the GC you can't see, it's even harder.

You need to understand that your sister is a narcissist. Her ego is so fragile and frail that she can't spend even a second considering the possibility she made mistakes or was wrong, without her entire world collapsing in on itself.

The chances she ever changes are slim to none, but much closer to 'none' given her age. Not only has her personality disorder had more time to calcify, but also her mistakes have only been piling on with time. Actual genuine change would require admitting fault to all of those piled up mistakes. The issue is only exacerbated because narcissism tends to produce a lot more mistakes than what's normal.

My advice? Lie. Just lie like you would when keeping someone with dementia or alzheimers safe. Narcissism is practically a mental illness in itself, and there is nothing morally wrong when lying to a narcissist. They really don't deserve your time and attention, but sometimes in life we have to deal with them anyway for one reason or another, so they definitely don't deserve the truth.

Here is a YouTube channel that exclusively talks about narcissism.
It's by a therapist. She extensively describes their particular behaviors and sometimes provides helpful ways of dealing with them. See if any videos resonate with your situation maybe.

Do you know the OP's sister PoppySeadBread? A very judgemental post especially when posting for the first time.

PoppySeadBread

You need to understand that your sister is a narcissist. Her ego is so fragile and frail that she can't spend even a second considering the possibility she made mistakes or was wrong, without her entire world collapsing in on itself.

The chances she ever changes are slim to none, but much closer to 'none' given her age. Not only has her personality disorder had more time to calcify, but also her mistakes have only been piling on with time. Actual genuine change would require admitting fault to all of those piled up mistakes. The issue is only exacerbated because narcissism tends to produce a lot more mistakes than what's normal.

My advice? Lie. Just lie like you would when keeping someone with dementia or alzheimers safe. Narcissism is practically a mental illness in itself, and there is nothing morally wrong when lying to a narcissist. They really don't deserve your time and attention, but sometimes in life we have to deal with them anyway for one reason or another, so they definitely don't deserve the truth.

Here is a YouTube channel that exclusively talks about narcissism.
It's by a therapist. She extensively describes their particular behaviors and sometimes provides helpful ways of dealing with them. See if any videos resonate with your situation maybe.

Oh my, am not sure how you took all this away from simply reading the OP.
Bizarre.

Projection perhaps Fallingstar.

Quoting InRainbows only.

- "She is ignoring the needs and feelings of others"
- "The expectation is we agree she is right with very little context."
- "Any suggestions we make on how to resolve things are met with anger and defensiveness."

Among other things...

If it's not narcissism, you can't deny that it's some sort of severe personality disorder. But it is most definitely narcissism.

Insinuating that I'm a narcissist through projection is rather childish and too simple-minded honestly. All the signs are clearly there. As long as you don't see too much of yourself in it, otherwise you may be too defensive (just like the sister) to see it.

I didn't insinuate that you're a narcissist PoppySeadBread. I suggested that you're projecting your own experiences of a difficult relationship onto the OP's sister, because IMO that is what you appear to be doing.

Okay my bad for misunderstanding your post. But you're right, it's my own very similar experience that allows me to easily spot it and identify it.

The sister's behaviors are textbook examples of narcissistic personality disorders.

She is even trying to control communication between other people, as if they are her property and not individuals.

That's why I suggested lying. It can even be lying by omission. Only good things can happen by putting the sister on an information diet, because what else can you do with a narcissist? You can't change them, you can't reason with them, you can't openly talk with them, all the while they behave unreasonably sour and make unreasonable demands.

Personally, I would cut them out of my life. But the next best thing is letting them know as little about your life as possible.

You're telling the OP that her sister is a narcissist which she may well find offensive, which is why it's better not to allow your personal experiences to colour your responses.

InRainbows doesn't have to lie to her sister; she doesn't give her any information which is the best way of handling this very difficult family situation.

Offensive or not, that particular kind of behavior is identified as narcissism.

Unless the sister has some form of neurodegenerative disease or has holes in her brain from a tragic accident or decades of drug abuse, the special way she behaves is fully aligned with narcissism.

I tend to agree with PoppySeadBread, the sister is definitely showing narcissistic traits.
She is way out of line expecting the OP to not speak to her daughter, her own niece!
She's lucky you are trying to help her.

Well I think is up to InRainbows to come back and say whether she agrees with the opinion of MarieElla and PoppySeedBread. I cannot give any kind of psychological profile of her sister because I don’t know her.

Everyone has basic narcissistic traits such as self-interest, pride and the desire to be appreciated. These are normal human feelings that help build confidence, set personal goals and protect ones well being.

Even if the aforementioned appear to be more defined, that doesn't mean they're a narcissist.

Narcissism is a clinical health condition that can only be diagnosed by a qualified clinician.

I did not say the sister had narcissistic personality disorder, I said she shows signs of narcissistic traits.

Yes but those basic traits aren't so pronounced to the point where you completely "ignore the needs and feelings of others", refuse to admit any fault, or end up losing all contact with your child with no real hope for reconciliation. That's when it begins to be viewed as narcissism, because that kind of behavior is antithetical to what is considered to be a healthy, fully mentally developed adult.

The knowledge about narcissism and advice for dealing with them would benefit InRainbows because it applies to her situation practically 1 to 1.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

I didn't say you did MarieElla.

That's for InRainbows to decide PoppySeadBread.

Ok well the narcissist in my life has an official diagnosis and they behave exactly the same as her sister. I haven't met anyone else that acts like this either. Even "difficult" people aren't this difficult.

An official diagnosis, that's interesting PoppySeadBread because narcissists rarely seek professional help as they're unlikely to accept they have a problem. It's everyone else who has one.

Do you regard the narcissist in your life seeking professional help/diagnosis as a positive?

Smileless2012 you're arguing with us when all we want to do us help thexOP help her sister.
The sister has narcissistic traits and therefore, difficult to help as she's not seeing things from other's poins of view.

Smileless2012

An official diagnosis, that's interesting PoppySeadBread because narcissists rarely seek professional help as they're unlikely to accept they have a problem. It's everyone else who has one.

Do you regard the narcissist in your life seeking professional help/diagnosis as a positive?

That's assuming they got one willingly on their own volition, which wasn't the case.