How do I help my sister to stop feeling like a victim?

Fallingstar

PoppySeadBread

Not all opinions are equal. Some are based in reality, while this one was based in delusion.

What if someone had the opinion that a coconut fell on the niece's head, and that's why she chose to estrange her lovely mother. Just because it's an opinion like any other, are we now going to question if the niece spent time under any palm trees recently?

That is disingenuous. And seeing as you are determined to be right in this instance I will leave you to it, and imagine InRainbows and other posters may well do the same.

I'm not determined to be right, I just am right. I'm sorry if logic and reason is a foreign concept to you.

InRainbows

PoppySeadBread

Actually, I'm now of the opinion that InRainbows might be the narcissist. You honestly can never know with narcissism, so let's not rule out that possibility.

That's concerning after what I have read on the subject. I wouldn't ever want to come across that way.

You do not come across that way.

I'm just using humor to point out the absurd logic behind the opinion that the niece might be a narcissist, and that that opinion is worthy of consideration just as much as my opinion.

PoppySeadBread

Actually, I'm now of the opinion that InRainbows might be the narcissist. You honestly can never know with narcissism, so let's not rule out that possibility.

That's concerning after what I have read on the subject. I wouldn't ever want to come across that way.

PoppySeadBread

Not all opinions are equal. Some are based in reality, while this one was based in delusion.

What if someone had the opinion that a coconut fell on the niece's head, and that's why she chose to estrange her lovely mother. Just because it's an opinion like any other, are we now going to question if the niece spent time under any palm trees recently?

That is disingenuous. And seeing as you are determined to be right in this instance I will leave you to it, and imagine InRainbows and other posters may well do the same.

I have been thinking about it. Not long ago I might have just said that my sister is high strung and not easy to please. She was not nice to me in childhood. I suppose I have always worked hard to keep the peace. I certainly don't like how I am being treated now that I am not doing as she wishes because I want to keep contact with my niece and don't feel it is right to punish her or take messages from my sister.

Actually, I'm now of the opinion that InRainbows might be the narcissist. You honestly can never know with narcissism, so let's not rule out that possibility.

I’ve come back to this post. Yes I understand inrainbows totally.

Not all opinions are equal. Some are based in reality, while this one was based in delusion.

What if someone had the opinion that a coconut fell on the niece's head, and that's why she chose to estrange her lovely mother. Just because it's an opinion like any other, are we now going to question if the niece spent time under any palm trees recently?

PoppySeadBread

Ya ok, sure, but what does the niece stand to gain by becoming an orphan?

And you already have a lot of narcissistic behavior present with the sister.

This is honestly a delusional take.

This is a bit of an antagonistic reply to someone who is just giving their opinion.
And afterall you also are just voicing your opinion, that is all it is, and all it can be on a forum where none of us ever know what is truly going on.
Also InRainbows has already posted that she doesn’t want any arguments, obviously she is under enough stress, so can we just consider this.

It's a good example of why banding about labels of narcissism is unhelpful and unproductive.

Talking about a personal experience of someone you believe to be a narcissist is one thing, but labelling someone you've never met as one is pointless.

Ya ok, sure, but what does the niece stand to gain by becoming an orphan?

And you already have a lot of narcissistic behavior present with the sister.

This is honestly a delusional take.

Maybe the neice is the narcissist not the sister. Nobody knows the full story of why so nobody can know for certain. Narcissists are very clever at hiding it for ages.

I would err on the side of caution here. I agree with Madgran, this sister may be a narcissist but on the other hand she could just be coping really badly with this estrangement. Of course is easy to blame her and certainly she has not endeared herself to anyone due to her attitude but she could just desperately need help and is burying her head in the sand with regard to this.
Would ask InRainbows if her sister was difficult before the estrangement? Or if this only happened once she was estranged?

That's true icanhandthemback. We've seen examples here on GN over the years and I've seen them on EP forums I've been on.

Taking the OP's situation out of the equation as it doesn't apply, there are of course situations where the AC or their husband/wife/partner has issues which as you say can reap havoc on their relationships with their parents.

Madgran77

*Well, how do you think she ended up estranged to begin with? It wasn't by being a loving, considerate, mature mother. I can tell you that much*

You cannot make that assumption

Sometimes children have their own problems which may not have been caused by the parents. Maybe the children grow up to be Borderline Personality, Bipolar, or have mental health issues which they may not be able to help but can reap havoc on their relationship with their parents.

Well, how do you think she ended up estranged to begin with? It wasn't by being a loving, considerate, mature mother. I can tell you that much

You cannot make that assumption

Madgran77

*If it's not narcissism, you can't deny that it's some sort of severe personality disorder. But it is most definitely narcissism*

It is clasdic behaviour of someone totally lost and devastated and not thinking straight. Yup she might have personality disorder or narcissism or whatever OR she might just be getting it wrong on bow to cope!! 🙄

Well, how do you think she ended up estranged to begin with?

It wasn't by being a loving, considerate, mature mother. I can tell you that much.

You're welcome icanhandthemback. I hope you can find a way to protect yourself because if you don't, you wont be able to give the help and support she needs and you clearly want to be able to provide.

I agree Madgran it's difficult to think straight if you're feeling totally lost and devastated in fact, it's difficult to be able to think at all.

If it's not narcissism, you can't deny that it's some sort of severe personality disorder. But it is most definitely narcissism

It is clasdic behaviour of someone totally lost and devastated and not thinking straight. Yup she might have personality disorder or narcissism or whatever OR she might just be getting it wrong on bow to cope!! 🙄

Poppy You need to understand that your sister is a narcissist. Her ego is so fragile and frail that she can't spend even a second considering the possibility she made mistakes or was wrong, without her entire world collapsing in on itself.

What a lot of major assumptions about a mother who is clearly hurting and upset even though her behaviour as described is not exactly helpful or wise in her situation!!

Thank you, Smileless20128. My husband and I are talking about the best way forward. I don't blame her, I think she is a very damaged person from our childhood and I feel sad that she has never found the support to overcome it. However, I am finding it harder and harder to navigate to the point I can see it is going to impact my emotional wellbeing so I am well on the way to seeing your point of view!

Please can we not have the arguments. I'm just finding it too stressful. Everyone's opinion is welcome.

Make clear you have no issue with your niece, and you will continue communication. Also explain that you are well aware having had your sister explain her concerns on many occasions by her and that you can do nothing therefore there is nothing achieved by the constant repetition. Someone will need to take the first step if there is any resolution to the situation and it won't be you.

Perhaps you should take a step back icanhandthemback and think about some boundaries you can put in place before you talk too or visit her again.

You mustn't allow her to tongue lash you. If she does this over the 'phone end the call; if she does this when you're visiting, leave and if she's at your house, tell her she needs to go.

Don't allow your understandable sadness for her, allow her to make you her emotional punch bag. You may never achieve the good relationship with her you desire, even if you continue to allow her to treat you in this way.

Smileless2012

I've yet to come across an EP who wasn't mortified when they became estranged in fact that would be an understatement, or who didn't put their parenting under a microscope to try and understand why they've been estranged PoppySeadBread.

Estrangement is referred to as a living bereavement and just like the grieving process when there's a death, there is anger. There's also shock, denial, depression and hopefully in the end, acceptance. So to say that feelings of anger from and EP isn't a valid emotion, is quite frankly ridiculous.

You'd have to made of stone not to react to how difficult it is to be estranged and doing so doesn't equate with not caring about why your child has decided to do so.

Someone with NPD frequently lies as a defensive mechanism to protect a fragile 'inner self'; maintain an image of perfection and avoid deep feelings of shame or guilt.

As lying is a narcissists modus operandi, why on earth would you choose to lie to them?

My sister doesn't examine what she did when her children estranged them. When they tried to resolve things before they took that step of estrangement, she railed against everything minimising what they were saying without any reflection of her own behaviour.
That doesn't mean I don't feel desperately sad for her because I would be devastated if my kids were to do this. I do understand how they feel because now they are unobtainable I get her tongue lashings. When she starts, I freeze before feeling very dejected for a few days. Recently, I played back the conversation in my head and had a lightbulb moment when I realise whatever I said, even apologies, she turned against me. When I look at the amount of people who have disappeared from her social circle when she has, of course, approached them "very nicely" about some wrong they have done her, I realise that she is displaying narcissistic traits. It doesn't make me any less sad. I am her sister and I really would prefer to have a good relationship with her but I am afraid that ship is fast looking like it has long since sailed.