How do I help my sister to stop feeling like a victim?

I am estranged from my AC and DGC. At the start it is unbelievably painful and overwhelming, not seeing your AC and DGC.
Also very painful knowing that you won’t see them maybe for a long time. Please bear with your sister and meant constructively, show her compassion.

I’ve found that distracting myself with things to do, an absorbing hobby, gardening, church, socialising, whatever was or could become her thing, try and facilitate it.

The more your DS is told to stop talking about, the longer she will be stuck in the painful phase.

She needs any family members that can listen, to listen. And not punish her.

Really!!! Can you explain why you think what I said could come across as estranging someone being taboo?

Smileless2012

Yes in the case of the OP's sister it does appear to be because of the way she (the sister's) behaved but you're constantly making judgemental sweeping generalisation about EP's which is for me such obvious projection that I knew you'd estranged someone, before you said so.

You say that as if estranging someone is taboo.

Yes in the case of the OP's sister it does appear to be because of the way she (the sister's) behaved but you're constantly making judgemental sweeping generalisation about EP's which is for me such obvious projection that I knew you'd estranged someone, before you said so.

Regardless of all that, perhaps you can help her by hoping out for a walk with her. Perhaps going for coffee and buying a new lipstick.
Taking her somewhere for some social interaction.

That was a typo, I meant to say "get what they want", obviously.

In this case it appears to be the direct consequence of the EP's actions, so talking about the rare instances where it's not isn't productive. Maybe you're the one projecting, not me??

Smileless2012

Do you know the OP's sister PoppySeadBread? A very judgemental post especially when posting for the first time.

Indeed

How do you know being estranged by your own child isn't something you "survive"? How can you possibly know something you have no experience of?

It isn't always the direct consequence of the EP's actions and if you had a fraction of the knowledge you seem to think you have, you would know this.

You would also know that narcissists don't lie to get what you want, they lie to get what they want.

I find PoppySeadBread's posts neither helpful nor informative due to their projection, but each to their own MarieElla.

butterandjam

PoppySeadBread

butterandjam

"
- "She is ignoring the needs and feelings of others"
- "The expectation is we agree she is right with very little context."
- "Any suggestions we make on how to resolve things are met with anger and defensiveness.""

These are common symptoms of someone in the midst of a life crisis they can't handle (like divorce, bereavement, financial disaster).

Struggling with a major change doesn't mean they are narcissists, or have a personality disorder. It certainly doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

Nearly everyone of my generation has gone through at least one major life problem , which changed their behaviour for a while in ways that tested their friends and family, until they found their feet and came out the other side.

It's been over a year and a half with no end in sight. Is that " a while" in your book, because it's not in mine.

Of course 18 months is only " a while". A pretty short while, in fact.

I've known people struggle with life-changing events for years , and survive to be wiser, tougher, more understanding of themselves and others.

You sound very young and inexperienced.

Being estranged by your children is not something you "survive". It may feel that way, but that feeling stems from immaturity.

This isn't a tragic, unavoidable accident you survive and overcome. It's the direct consequence and result of your own actions.

Just because you feel an emotion doesn't automatically make it valid. That's what separates maturity from immaturity. It's normal to expect a child to think their emotions are valid simply because they feel them, but once your brain develops and you mature as a person, you are expected to not let your emotions run and control you.

You lie to a narcissist because the truth will never be productive. The reason for lying is what separates you from a narcissist. Narcissists lie to get what you want, you lie to a narcissist to protect yourself and your peace.

My example is more extreme because the narcissist in my life was a parent and not a sibling, so lying to her was crucial for my survival under her. I foolishly attempted the truth for many years, but it never achieved anything productive and only ended up hurting me in the end.

butterandjam
Why say that?
PoppyseadBread 's posts are helpful and informative.

PoppySeadBread

butterandjam

"
- "She is ignoring the needs and feelings of others"
- "The expectation is we agree she is right with very little context."
- "Any suggestions we make on how to resolve things are met with anger and defensiveness.""

These are common symptoms of someone in the midst of a life crisis they can't handle (like divorce, bereavement, financial disaster).

Struggling with a major change doesn't mean they are narcissists, or have a personality disorder. It certainly doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

Nearly everyone of my generation has gone through at least one major life problem , which changed their behaviour for a while in ways that tested their friends and family, until they found their feet and came out the other side.

It's been over a year and a half with no end in sight. Is that " a while" in your book, because it's not in mine.

Of course 18 months is only " a while". A pretty short while, in fact.

I've known people struggle with life-changing events for years , and survive to be wiser, tougher, more understanding of themselves and others.

You sound very young and inexperienced.

You don't need to lie to a narcissist, you need to tell the truth because it's the truth about themselves that their lies enable them to hide from.

I've yet to come across an EP who wasn't mortified when they became estranged in fact that would be an understatement, or who didn't put their parenting under a microscope to try and understand why they've been estranged PoppySeadBread.

Estrangement is referred to as a living bereavement and just like the grieving process when there's a death, there is anger. There's also shock, denial, depression and hopefully in the end, acceptance. So to say that feelings of anger from and EP isn't a valid emotion, is quite frankly ridiculous.

You'd have to made of stone not to react to how difficult it is to be estranged and doing so doesn't equate with not caring about why your child has decided to do so.

Someone with NPD frequently lies as a defensive mechanism to protect a fragile 'inner self'; maintain an image of perfection and avoid deep feelings of shame or guilt.

As lying is a narcissists modus operandi, why on earth would you choose to lie to them?

I'll begin using the term emotionally immature instead of narcissism because people on here seem to have too rigid of a view of it or may not fully understand it.

It's very easy to act and appear mature when things are smooth sailing and going well. A true test of character is when things no longer are going their way, they start hearing no and not getting what they want. That's when emotionally immature people show their true colors.

For reference, if a healthy, emotionally mature parent ever found themselves estranged their reaction would primarily involve being mortified that their child felt the need to cut contact. If they feel disappointment, they feel disappointed in themselves for failing their child. If they feel anger, they won't dwell on it or give it fuel, rightfully realizing it's not a valid emotion in this situation. They would spend their time wondering where they went wrong and what they could have done differently, instead of trying to garner sympathy for the situation they found themselves in. A healthy, mature, responsible parent would care more about how their child must have felt to make such a difficult decision, instead of caring how difficult it is now for themselves to now be estranged.

If your niece claims she doesn't feel loved (by her mother), I'm very inclined to believe her. That your sister's reaction isn't just because of a life crisis, it's who she really is deep down.

Smileless asked earlier how I would treat a narcissist. I would follow the general advice she provided (disengage, etc.), while also viewing lying as a valid way of dealing with her. More importantly, I would stop offering suggestions and drop all hope that she will get better and grow as a person, because nothing short of a literal, actual miracle can change her.

butterandjam

"
- "She is ignoring the needs and feelings of others"
- "The expectation is we agree she is right with very little context."
- "Any suggestions we make on how to resolve things are met with anger and defensiveness.""

These are common symptoms of someone in the midst of a life crisis they can't handle (like divorce, bereavement, financial disaster).

Struggling with a major change doesn't mean they are narcissists, or have a personality disorder. It certainly doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

Nearly everyone of my generation has gone through at least one major life problem , which changed their behaviour for a while in ways that tested their friends and family, until they found their feet and came out the other side.

It's been over a year and a half with no end in sight. Is that " a while" in your book, because it's not in mine.

"
- "She is ignoring the needs and feelings of others"
- "The expectation is we agree she is right with very little context."
- "Any suggestions we make on how to resolve things are met with anger and defensiveness.""

These are common symptoms of someone in the midst of a life crisis they can't handle (like divorce, bereavement, financial disaster).

Struggling with a major change doesn't mean they are narcissists, or have a personality disorder. It certainly doesn't mean they are mentally ill.

Nearly everyone of my generation has gone through at least one major life problem , which changed their behaviour for a while in ways that tested their friends and family, until they found their feet and came out the other side.

I'm sorry that you feel there's a distance between you and your niece InRainbows, because you've previously posted about your closeness and how much time you spent together when she was younger.

From previous posts FWIW I'm sure she knows you love her. Maybe she's finding it difficult to compartmentalise her relationship with you, her aunt and your relationship with your sister, her mother.

It can be very difficult when someone you're close too continues the relationship they have with the one they've estranged, and vice versa but these relationships do continue, as they should.

I think you're right. Feeling that she's not loved by her mother may well be the story in itself .

I don't have a strong understanding of narcissism but someone said it was different to the diagnosable disorder somewhere.

For my own understanding I am treating it the same as calling someone's behaviour jealous or controlling or selfish in that, it does describe some things that are going on and it is worth consideration. Even if it is difficult to process or accept might be the case.

My niece does not want to involve me with her side of the story. She only says she doesn't feel loved. I suppose that is a side of the story in itself. No one should feel that way. I hope she knows I love her, we have always been close but now things feel more distant.

Well there's no point in pursuing it MarieElla.

What a lovely post WishingOnaStar .

Ok.
You had 'no role' in the estrangement and I will leave it at that.

InRainbows

This is such a heartbreaking situation for all involved. I don’t know what the answer is or what to do for the best but I do know that the pain of being estranged by your adult child is so immense that it can preoccupy your thoughts and life and make it hard to think and function; if your sister was able to respond to other people’s needs and maintain largely healthy relationships prior to the estrangement then she will be able to again, but it will take time; in time she may need counselling but only when she is ready, and keeping on suggesting it may push her away or distress her further; her need for someone to be on her side is understandable but taking sides won’t help anyone in the long run.

The estrangement forums can be a double edged sword and may not help her at this point while she is still so raw. The attacks on estranged parents can be very vicious and harmful, but there can also be wonderful sensitive mature contributions for example lovethepuppies posts on this forum.

I think what you’re doing is loving and supportive. Maintaining your relationship with your niece without pressuring her or expecting her to discuss the estrangement, while also supporting your sister.

I don’t know if your sister is at the point where she can hear that it would be good for the two of you to have some time together free of any talk of the estrangement?

She is lucky to have you and I wish you all well 💐

No not at all MarieElla. It was a thread started by an estranged mother that brought me to GN in the first place and due to the longevity and success of the support thread, which resulted in other threads on the topic being started, the topic of estrangement was given it's own section here on GN.

My experience is well documented as are the opinions of many who've commentated on it. We had no 'role' in our estrangement; it was not of our making and out of our control.

I am always willing to 'take on board' the opinions of others about our experience and the experiences of others but wont necessarily agree with them. I have and will always have an issue of those who project their experiences onto others, especially when that involves labelling people they've never met as narcissistic.

Suggest it

OK Smileless2012 . I won't suit again.
But it's interesting you don't want to start a thread about your own experience yet post on others?
Is it because you may have to face up to your role in the estrangement .and have to take on board others' opinions.