So Roger Daltrey reckons old people have caused the NHS crisis?

This is the article concerned and I pretty much agree with it.

www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/roger-daltrey-age-nhs-teenage-cancer-trust-b2477841.html#comments-area

Urmstongran

We did an exercise once (many years ago) at work during a discussion group. We were given a set of variables - supposed patients waiting for specialised expensive (and there for limited access) treatment. We were given their supposed ages, co-morbidities and told of their likely prognoses. We were split up into groups to discuss. Some robust views were put forward. Other folk leaned towards one age demographic or another. After about half an hour the groups reassembled with their findings.

And then we were told how the NHS would prioritise treatment.

“It would be given to whoever was most sick”. End of.
I like to think that’s still the case.

“It would be given to whoever was most sick”.

This.

PS URMS I've PM'D you (rather late-in-the-day for the New Year!)

So if we restrict treatment for the elderly, who have the “misfortune” to live beyond middle age who else should be discriminated against? The obese, a “growing” group, many of whom are young, those who do not eat a healthy diet or exercise, the smokers, the drinkers, the mentally ill, drug users (not necessarily illegal ones) in fact anyone who it can be said to has contributed to their ill health.

Seriously, I believe that there should be cross party discussions about the NHS, with a comprehensive review of which treatments and drugs should be available, not just to the elderly, but to all with a terminal illness, which only extend life, at great cost, for a matter of weeks. No party will grasp this.

I think it is a horrible thing for him to say. No, I do not think it was taken out of context or said in jest.

It’s a wonder that the younger generation don’t put in a vote for us oldies to be shot when we get to 70! It would save us taking up any space in the NHS. Bed hugging etc. My god what has the world come to. How dare people live past 70?

I think if someone ‘only has weeks’ that time is very precious. To them and their family.

Callistemon21

Bridie22

In the real world all services should be equal regardless of age, sadly that's not the world we now live in.
Roger has given young people a fighting chance with the charity money he has raised...would these youngsters have survived without it in the real world?

My dear friend was a nurse working with children with cancer and leukaemia for years. Yes, every penny raised by various charities goes to help find treatments and alleviate suffering but the people working so hard day in day out are the ones trying their utmost to give children a fighting chance.

Heading up a concert every year is laudable but it's not anything like working on the wards, supporting families.

Well done for your fundraising efforts, Roger, but don't make it an intergenerational fight, setting young against old.
It really should not be so.

... but the people working so hard day in day out are the ones trying their utmost to give children a fighting chance.

Heading up a concert every year is laudable but it's not anything like working on the wards, supporting families.

SPOT ON Callistemon21

... or my mother - in her late 70s - an ex SRN offering to look after the very sick babies and children, free of charge, whilst their exhausted parents went out for a dinner, or an afternoon walk in the park so they could have a couple of hours to themselves, knowing that my mother would make sure their tubes were in place, their nappies changed, their medication administered at the appropriate time... she would sit in their bedrooms and read to them, sing songs, help them with their toys...

There are so many 'unsung' heroes who quietly do what they can without having a mike shoved in their faces to air their views - views which are just as valid as Daltrey's.

I do think there’s too much ‘striving to keep alive’ of the very elderly and those with a very poor quality of life, especially where dementia is involved. In and out of hospital, on drips, ABs, stuffed with tablets to keep them ‘healthy’ - though to be fair, from all I’ve ever read or heard it’s often the relatives who insist that mum or dad must be kept going regardless - rather than the medics.

On a carer’s forum I read of someone of over 90, with already moderately advanced dementia, being given a pacemaker. It was the relatives’ choice, having asked the medics what would happen if s/he didn’t have it.

‘They’d probably die quite peacefully in their sleep.’
But they went ahead anyway.

Don't get me wrong I agree that care should go to the sickest, as a retired RGN i worked in these situations especially in transplant situations and sometimes the choices are difficult.
I think Roger has made us wonder, would you give up your care if it saved your child/ grandchild, ?

Witzend

I do think there’s too much ‘striving to keep alive’ of the very elderly and those with a very poor quality of life, especially where dementia is involved. In and out of hospital, on drips, ABs, stuffed with tablets to keep them ‘healthy’ - though to be fair, from all I’ve ever read or heard it’s often the relatives who insist that mum or dad must be kept going regardless - rather than the medics.

On a carer’s forum I read of someone of over 90, with already moderately advanced dementia, being given a pacemaker. It was the relatives’ choice, having asked the medics what would happen if s/he didn’t have it.

‘They’d probably die quite peacefully in their sleep.’
But they went ahead anyway.

Exceptional cases highlighted in forums and in the media.

Is there any proper recorded evidence - apart from these anecdotal cases - that very ill and old people are, en masse, being kept alive against their best interests?

You see, four years ago or so, I watched a consultant (only the side curtains were drawn and I was facing the bed) tell an elderly lady that she had an inoperable bowel tumour which was the cause of the pain which had brought her to A&E, and that any intervention was not in her best interests. It became obvious, later, that her family agreed with this.

But this didn't make the news.

We hear about relatives pleading for treatment of their elderly family member against what we all consider to be against better judgement. But where are the statistics that tell us this is the majority?

So when you say there's too much "striving to keep alive" - what are you basing this assumption on?

well, roger daltrey being 79 should watch out if he needs the nhs
he'll be put on the pathway, yes it still exists, just dropped the 'liverpool'

Raising money for the Teenage Cancer Trust doesn't give him a free card to criticise those over a certain age needing help from the NHS. Frankly, |I went off him when he vociferously supported Brexit and then discovered it was detrimental to his salmon farming business, and made touring almost impossible for all but the wealthiest of musicians. He is entitled to his opinion, as we all are, but having been a rock star doesn't make his opinion any more worth listening to. My friend started a cancer charity after the tragic loss of her son and is quietly raising money without the same kind of contacts that Daltry has.

I am wondering exactly how it would help a youngster being treated for cancer if they knew their own grandparents or even, in this time of late parenthood, their own parents were being denied treatment and then died?

Or do we go down the road of judging people’s value to society? Old = useless which then opens the doors to the disabled, the long term sick, long term unemployed, life term prisoners… 🤔

I just ignore him and any other ignoramuses like him and carry on regardless. Worked so far.

When my DH aged 75 was rushed into hospital with a sudden kidney stone blockage, having been treated for cancer for 4 years, we were asked if we wanted him to be resuscitated if he "died" on the operating table
I was in shock and didn't know what to say. My son piped up "yes ofcourse. He's my dad!"
I was so pleased and proud.
DH did survive that op but died peacefully at home a few weeks later with all of us at his side.

Dickens, at least partly from what I witnessed during my mother’s 8 years in her dementia-only care home. Suffice it to say that once she’d reached a certain stage, I made it very clear to staff that there was to be no badgering and pestering to eat and drink if she no longer wanted to (albeit with the best of intentions but I’d witnessed some instances where the person was clearly distressed)

and no hospital unless absolutely necessary, e.g. in the case of a 2nd broken hip, or other fracture. Hospital is in any case a terrible place for anyone with dementia, when they can’t understand what is going on, or why.

I might add that staff agreed with me 100% that these would not be in my mother’s best interests.

SueDomin... I was merely posing the question, " would you give up your care for a younger loved ones survival...I would.

FindingNemo15

Roger has 8 children and 15 grandchildren. I wonder if they all rely on the NHS!

If they are UK residents why shouldn't they rely on the NHS? Chances are they pay taxes like everyone else.

Bridie22

SueDomin... I was merely posing the question, " would you give up your care for a younger loved ones survival...I would.

I think that was what he was trying, inarticulately, to say. He wasn’t saying older peoples lives are worthless, he was saying that fundraising to keep younger people’s cancer services should not be essential to keep basic services for this group running, and the now very limited money in the NHS should be redirected, even though there would be less money for services for older people and for bureaucracy. Look at the state of maternity services and the increase in maternal deaths for another example.

Dickens

Callistemon21

Bridie22

In the real world all services should be equal regardless of age, sadly that's not the world we now live in.
Roger has given young people a fighting chance with the charity money he has raised...would these youngsters have survived without it in the real world?

My dear friend was a nurse working with children with cancer and leukaemia for years. Yes, every penny raised by various charities goes to help find treatments and alleviate suffering but the people working so hard day in day out are the ones trying their utmost to give children a fighting chance.

Heading up a concert every year is laudable but it's not anything like working on the wards, supporting families.

Well done for your fundraising efforts, Roger, but don't make it an intergenerational fight, setting young against old.
It really should not be so.

... but the people working so hard day in day out are the ones trying their utmost to give children a fighting chance.

Heading up a concert every year is laudable but it's not anything like working on the wards, supporting families.

SPOT ON Callistemon21

... or my mother - in her late 70s - an ex SRN offering to look after the very sick babies and children, free of charge, whilst their exhausted parents went out for a dinner, or an afternoon walk in the park so they could have a couple of hours to themselves, knowing that my mother would make sure their tubes were in place, their nappies changed, their medication administered at the appropriate time... she would sit in their bedrooms and read to them, sing songs, help them with their toys...

There are so many 'unsung' heroes who quietly do what they can without having a mike shoved in their faces to air their views - views which are just as valid as Daltrey's.

My friend also helped to set up a charity, started by bereaved parents, to support families of children with cancer and leukaemia. I'm happy to say the charity has grown and still doing excellent work today.

Witzend

I do think there’s too much ‘striving to keep alive’ of the very elderly and those with a very poor quality of life, especially where dementia is involved. In and out of hospital, on drips, ABs, stuffed with tablets to keep them ‘healthy’ - though to be fair, from all I’ve ever read or heard it’s often the relatives who insist that mum or dad must be kept going regardless - rather than the medics.

On a carer’s forum I read of someone of over 90, with already moderately advanced dementia, being given a pacemaker. It was the relatives’ choice, having asked the medics what would happen if s/he didn’t have it.

‘They’d probably die quite peacefully in their sleep.’
But they went ahead anyway.

Well, I'm glad they strove to keep alive DH after making him agree to a DNR when he was non compos mentis and without my knowledge.
He's still a useful member of society.

lemsip

well, roger daltrey being 79 should watch out if he needs the nhs
he'll be put on the pathway, yes it still exists, just dropped the 'liverpool'

Yes, it does.

Casdon, totally agree with you.

I agree with you Casdon, I read the interview in The Times magazine yesterday. What was actually said during the whole interview and the ‘sound bites’ used may meant context was lost. He was speaking generally for himself as ready to die, as one who feels he’s had his time.
My take from it was Roger publicising The Teenage Cancer Trust, yes there are many others working in a quiet manner for various charities, but the ‘famous’ can add weight and have media access, which many don’t.
Witzend I had a similar experience with my Mum, ten years, it was horrendous to go through.

I’m sure we’d all give up our chance of life if it meant our children/GC had that chance instead, but Roger Daltry should be railing against the circumstances that have led this to even be a consideration, not blaming people whose only fault is to not die in middle age.

I think we all know by now that our NHS is no longer ‘the envy of the world’ (does any other country have the exact same system as the UK?) and that other countries do it better on less money. He could campaign on that.

Having said which, I admire RD for his fundraising efforts and hadn’t realised that he’d lost his own sister when young.

If I have paid into a system throughout my working life that I have hardly ever used. I do not think it unreasonable to expect it to look after me, if I need it later.

I think it is very dangerous to see old people as expendable. Society is far more dependent on us than they realise. The majority of volunteers on whch charities rely on are people beyond retriement age.

My father lived to be 92, until 3 months before his death he was outings organiser for the local National Trust Group, an active worker for the political party he supported and the key lay support at his local church. When he died all the local undertakers knew him because he was the person they liaised with whenever there was a funeral at the church he attended.