So Roger Daltrey reckons old people have caused the NHS crisis?

Does anyone remember the TV series in 60s Logan’s Run when people were “culled” humanly at 21? They had an inbuilt crystal when born which changed colour every few years until black I think on the last day.
That’s an idea eh? What age should we programmed ‘til?

The voluntary section would collapse too!
Charities are manned and supported, in the main, by retired volunteers.

What about childcare for thousands of grandchildren, which would have a knock on effect?

Oh yes, unpaid!

I wonder how many 90 year olds are looking after grandchildren or helping out charities? And even that is irrelevant. What Daltry is asking is if when faced with an illness that would severely affect your quality of life, would you want treatment or not, and if that treatment was offered to you at the expense of denying a younger person treatment, would you still want it.?
It's a valid question. In an ideal world of course the second part would never apply. But I think we all realise, in the NHS we have today it does.
The first is a question we should consider.
The old adage for doctors comes to mind
Thou shalt not kill, but should not strive officiously to keep alive.

I do know 90 year olds who were working for charities because younger retired people just do not come forward - they're too busy joining U3A, going off on holidays and enjoying themselves!

Callistemon21

I do know 90 year olds who were working for charities because younger retired people just do not come forward - they're too busy joining U3A, going off on holidays and enjoying themselves!

Which is why I said it was really irrelevant.
I do wish Callistemon21 that you could address the whole issue and stop trying to pick individual bits and make them the basis of some sort of argument.

Glorianny

I wonder how many 90 year olds are looking after grandchildren or helping out charities? And even that is irrelevant. What Daltry is asking is if when faced with an illness that would severely affect your quality of life, would you want treatment or not, and if that treatment was offered to you at the expense of denying a younger person treatment, would you still want it.?
It's a valid question. In an ideal world of course the second part would never apply. But I think we all realise, in the NHS we have today it does.
The first is a question we should consider.
The old adage for doctors comes to mind
Thou shalt not kill, but should not strive officiously to keep alive.

... perhaps Daltrey should also be "asking" why our NHS and other services are in such a parlous state which must have an effect on services for both young, old and those in between?

He's a Tory voter so has helped to collude with the dismembering of our services.

He also voted for Brexit and then complained about the effect it had on his ability to tour in Europe.

... so I'll take no lessons from him.

And yes, along with many others I suspect, I would refuse treatment if it seemed futile and was at the expense of a younger person who might benefit... but I don't need prodding from a privileged ageing rocker to come to that conclusion.

Dickens

Glorianny

I wonder how many 90 year olds are looking after grandchildren or helping out charities? And even that is irrelevant. What Daltry is asking is if when faced with an illness that would severely affect your quality of life, would you want treatment or not, and if that treatment was offered to you at the expense of denying a younger person treatment, would you still want it.?
It's a valid question. In an ideal world of course the second part would never apply. But I think we all realise, in the NHS we have today it does.
The first is a question we should consider.
The old adage for doctors comes to mind
Thou shalt not kill, but should not strive officiously to keep alive.

... perhaps Daltrey should also be "asking" why our NHS and other services are in such a parlous state which must have an effect on services for both young, old and those in between?

He's a Tory voter so has helped to collude with the dismembering of our services.

He also voted for Brexit and then complained about the effect it had on his ability to tour in Europe.

... so I'll take no lessons from him.

And yes, along with many others I suspect, I would refuse treatment if it seemed futile and was at the expense of a younger person who might benefit... but I don't need prodding from a privileged ageing rocker to come to that conclusion.

I don't expect anyone to take lessons from someone, just to be able to discuss reasonably ideas that are put forward. As far as politics goes his couldn't be further from mine, but I think most know that.

Glorianny

Callistemon21

I do know 90 year olds who were working for charities because younger retired people just do not come forward - they're too busy joining U3A, going off on holidays and enjoying themselves!

Which is why I said it was really irrelevant.
I do wish Callistemon21 that you could address the whole issue and stop trying to pick individual bits and make them the basis of some sort of argument.

I do wish you would stop trying to control threads and constantly making attacks on other posters.

Glorianny

Dickens

Glorianny

I wonder how many 90 year olds are looking after grandchildren or helping out charities? And even that is irrelevant. What Daltry is asking is if when faced with an illness that would severely affect your quality of life, would you want treatment or not, and if that treatment was offered to you at the expense of denying a younger person treatment, would you still want it.?
It's a valid question. In an ideal world of course the second part would never apply. But I think we all realise, in the NHS we have today it does.
The first is a question we should consider.
The old adage for doctors comes to mind
Thou shalt not kill, but should not strive officiously to keep alive.

... perhaps Daltrey should also be "asking" why our NHS and other services are in such a parlous state which must have an effect on services for both young, old and those in between?

He's a Tory voter so has helped to collude with the dismembering of our services.

He also voted for Brexit and then complained about the effect it had on his ability to tour in Europe.

... so I'll take no lessons from him.

And yes, along with many others I suspect, I would refuse treatment if it seemed futile and was at the expense of a younger person who might benefit... but I don't need prodding from a privileged ageing rocker to come to that conclusion.

I don't expect anyone to take lessons from someone, just to be able to discuss reasonably ideas that are put forward. As far as politics goes his couldn't be further from mine, but I think most know that.

This is being discussed as if Daltrey has said something profound, almost as if he's a truth-seeker who's broken some kind of barrier of silence about a topic no-one wants or dares talk about!

It's the reverence for his opinion that irks me.

This issue has been discussed here on GN before because I would hazard a guess that many of us have thought - some possibly quite deeply - about the whole matter of dying... dying with dignity; at a time of our choice, etc; not wanting dramatic or heroic resuscitation.

I once discharged myself from a hospital ward because in spite of the fact I was rather unwell, I knew that the medics looking after me were puzzled about what to do and didn't have an immediate answer. I felt guilty taking up a bed that was more likely than not needed by someone who was more seriously ill than I was. I told the next doctor I saw on the daily round, and he agreed with me. It wasn't a valiant act on my part, it was common sense. Which many of us on here have in abundance, so I am rather irritated by Daltrey's opining which, in truth, I believe was rather more for effect than any real urge to deal with a problem that is a bit more complex than he realises. Yes, he's done good work for the cancer charity, begging bands to play FOC, etc. But that does not make him an expert on the complex matter of when and how we die.

I don’t think RD would consider himself an expert either, he made a few comments, his opinion, possibly taken out of context. Because of who he is and it was in MSM it’s got a lot of publicity, his view, that’s all.

Glorianny you have some very cliched ideas about 90 year olds. I have met a significant nimber of 90 year olds still playing a significant part in helping their communities, perhaps not looking after grandchildren, their grandchildren being old enough to be parents themselves, but organising events, leaflet delivering for the political aprty they support, helping out ata the local Age Uk office,

I have a centenarian living opposite me. He is out everday walking his daily mile and chattin to people he meets on the way.

This stuff about old people taking beds that could be treating younger people, sounds like the silly thing about old people working putting young people out of work. It doesn't work like that. most people get through most of their lives without haviung much recourse to the NHS. these days it is only when we get old that we start needing health care. Most of us pay into the NHS for decades, while needing no care. We expect when the time comes and we do need it, it will be there.

if care is going to be based on age then paying it should also be based on age, so that only old people pay and could someone refund me all the money I (willingly) paid to an NHS that I thought was there for me from cradle to grave, which i now discover is from cradle to 65.

How do you judge quality of life? Of course there are scores, but when the score is one aprticular person, it is going to vary, some peoples zest for life will keep them getting value form their life when quite disabled, where another won't. I have seen that as well.

M0nica

Glorianny you have some very cliched ideas about 90 year olds. I have met a significant nimber of 90 year olds still playing a significant part in helping their communities, perhaps not looking after grandchildren, their grandchildren being old enough to be parents themselves, but organising events, leaflet delivering for the political aprty they support, helping out ata the local Age Uk office,

I have a centenarian living opposite me. He is out everday walking his daily mile and chattin to people he meets on the way.

This stuff about old people taking beds that could be treating younger people, sounds like the silly thing about old people working putting young people out of work. It doesn't work like that. most people get through most of their lives without haviung much recourse to the NHS. these days it is only when we get old that we start needing health care. Most of us pay into the NHS for decades, while needing no care. We expect when the time comes and we do need it, it will be there.

if care is going to be based on age then paying it should also be based on age, so that only old people pay and could someone refund me all the money I (willingly) paid to an NHS that I thought was there for me from cradle to grave, which i now discover is from cradle to 65.

How do you judge quality of life? Of course there are scores, but when the score is one aprticular person, it is going to vary, some peoples zest for life will keep them getting value form their life when quite disabled, where another won't. I have seen that as well.

Excellent post MOnica.

Although Glorianny can speak for herself, I think her argument is that Daltrey's observations should be taken as a catalyst for debate.

My argument is - why should we take his pronouncements with any more serious 'reverence' than, say, one of the thousands of others working within the health service or for charitable organisations?

I suppose the answer will be because he has a platform and can therefore use it to make us aware - as other high-profile individuals have done on various other matters. But this pre-supposes that (a) we, the little people so to speak, are in need of a spokesperson to articulate the complexities of such an issue, and (b) that the 'spokesperson' has some depth of knowledge of the matter that the rest of us are not privy to (if you'll excuse my garbled grammar).

And it also presupposes that the 'solution' to the problem of an ageing cohort is to hope we die before we get old when in fact we should, if we are going to discuss and debate the matter at all, be looking at the whole structure of the NHS, its funding, its capabilities, our expectations, and - not least - why it is now in such a grim state. Daltrey should perhaps also question himself on his staunch support of the Tory party which has presided over the last 14 years of austerity which has certainly had its effect on all our public services. Although I'm not sure of the depth of his grasp of politics, if he failed to understand that voting for Brexit would have repercussions on his band's ability to go on tour through the extra expense of acquiring work permits and carnets!

As you say MOnica, Most of us pay into the NHS for decades, while needing no care. We expect when the time comes and we do need it, it will be there.

As to the deeper question regarding heroic treatment of very old people when they are nearing death, I think I could safely bet my house that it's a matter that many of us as we age have thought about - and even planned for. In fact, I know it's true because we've had these discussions on GN and many members have made it quite clear what their wishes are. Because although views may vary, we are educated and intelligent people who have watched our own parents' demise and have probably learned more from that than we will ever learn from a rock legend sparking a media controversy - on which the media thrives and survives.

Jaxjacky

I don’t think RD would consider himself an expert either, he made a few comments, his opinion, possibly taken out of context. Because of who he is and it was in MSM it’s got a lot of publicity, his view, that’s all.

His views have no more validity than anyone else's and, as Dickens says:
It's the reverence for his opinion that irks me

It's the same with so many celebs and their very opiniated opinions. We are supposed to look on them as pillars of wisdom.

M0nica

Glorianny you have some very cliched ideas about 90 year olds. I have met a significant nimber of 90 year olds still playing a significant part in helping their communities, perhaps not looking after grandchildren, their grandchildren being old enough to be parents themselves, but organising events, leaflet delivering for the political aprty they support, helping out ata the local Age Uk office,

I have a centenarian living opposite me. He is out everday walking his daily mile and chattin to people he meets on the way.

This stuff about old people taking beds that could be treating younger people, sounds like the silly thing about old people working putting young people out of work. It doesn't work like that. most people get through most of their lives without haviung much recourse to the NHS. these days it is only when we get old that we start needing health care. Most of us pay into the NHS for decades, while needing no care. We expect when the time comes and we do need it, it will be there.

if care is going to be based on age then paying it should also be based on age, so that only old people pay and could someone refund me all the money I (willingly) paid to an NHS that I thought was there for me from cradle to grave, which i now discover is from cradle to 65.

How do you judge quality of life? Of course there are scores, but when the score is one aprticular person, it is going to vary, some peoples zest for life will keep them getting value form their life when quite disabled, where another won't. I have seen that as well.

No cliched ideas. Just pointing out that it's up to the individual. I don't score people. I haven't said disabled people shouldn't be treated. It isn't about age. It isn't about ability

I have said you should examine your own mortality. Which is exactly what Daltry was talking about. I do wonder why some people find that concept so difficult to accept
As Freddie sang "Who wants to live forever?"

I'm not showing any "reverence" by the way just think it is an interesting discussion to have.

Glorianny

Do you really think people haven't examined their own mortality until urged to do so by Daltrey?

I'd imagine the dreadful state of social services and the NHS has already prompted many of us to do just that.

And why you should believe that it's a concept that "some people" find difficult to accept, I have no idea. And, if they do indeed find the concept of their own mortality difficult to accept, I doubt Daltrey's rye observations will do much to enlighten them.

We become aware of our own mortality as we age - and as I've mentioned before, it's a subject we've discussed here on GN. The comments and views of posters make it quite clear that we very much have considered the matter.

I find it rather insulting that you appear to believe we all needed a shake-up on this matter, and that Daltrey has come along to give us all a thorough head-wobble because we were not aware of our own mortality!

I might have more respect for his views and opinions if he had made a more thorough and rational investigation into the functioning of the NHS and social services, as opposed to making rather airy-fairy but dramatic observations based on his signature mantra.

And I'd certainly have more respect for his opinion if he hadn't consistently voted for a party that itself has consistently run down the public health services - and then put the blame for the degradation of those services on the people that operate them and those that use them.

TheThe Daltreys, the Linekars... and all the other high-profile individuals who use their popularity to make a point are quite entitled to their views, but they are no more valid than mine or anyone else's here on GN, and I really don't understand why we are expected to take them so seriously. I'm more inclined to listen to my friends and neighbours and various acquaintances who actually work in these fields, day in day out, and have formed their opinions from first-hand knowledge of the various systems and organisations connected with and to our public services.

Glorianny

As you appear to be fond of quoting rock legends' observations on 'life' as some serious fodder for thought...

You are never too old to set a new goal or dream a new dream.”
– C.S. Lewis

You are given one life, and you live it. Let no man tell you when your life appears to him - redundant. Your inner wit and intelligence will tell you when it is time to let go, it's an inner mechanism that we are all born with. It ticks away until the last, and then - we know it is time to let go.
– me, Dickens

You appear somewhat irritated that we are not giving due appreciation to the observations of Daltrey because he's made an important point!

Can I say that many of us have actually got there before him, raised the same questions to ourselves, and our families? And that we know when the media are doing what the media does - which is to garner clicks and up its readership which will further its advertising revenue potential?

Perhaps because some people are posting about culling people, how much 90 year olds can do, how we all pay for the NHS, and even about people with disabilities Dickens. All of which seem pretty irrelevant in my view.

Nor do I think it is necessary to investigate what happens in every aspect of the NHS and care (which varies so immensely it would be difficult to find anyone with a truly comprehensive knowledge)

As for taking offense because you disagree with someone's politics. Had he been advocating that you should do something but he wouldn't I think that's a fair point but I don't think he was. However he voted he is entitled to post an opinion.

As I said before he toured with Wilko Johnson when he had refused chemo and been diagnosed with terminal pancreatic cancer. It was regarded as his last tour and Johnson wrote about facing death. But it turned out he had been misdiagnosed he was operated on and lived for a few more years. But I would imagine Johnson discussed his death at the time.

Glorianny

Perhaps because some people are posting about culling people, how much 90 year olds can do, how we all pay for the NHS, and even about people with disabilities Dickens. All of which seem pretty irrelevant in my view.

Nor do I think it is necessary to investigate what happens in every aspect of the NHS and care (which varies so immensely it would be difficult to find anyone with a truly comprehensive knowledge)

As for taking offense because you disagree with someone's politics. Had he been advocating that you should do something but he wouldn't I think that's a fair point but I don't think he was. However he voted he is entitled to post an opinion.

As I said before he toured with Wilko Johnson when he had refused chemo and been diagnosed with terminal pancreatic cancer. It was regarded as his last tour and Johnson wrote about facing death. But it turned out he had been misdiagnosed he was operated on and lived for a few more years. But I would imagine Johnson discussed his death at the time.

Speaking with The Times about the struggles citizens face when trying to get health service, Daltrey didn’t mix words, suggesting that older generations are in the way. He said, “I’m in the way. All us old farts, we really are just in the way of the young now, aren’t we?” The 79-year-old singer added, “For f**k’s sake, Let’s just die! Get me and my lot out the way. It’s crazy.”

He is blaming "old farts" for the disintegration of our health and public services without once mentioning the effect of austerity on those services imposed on it by a government that he supports.

"Let's just die" - "get me and my lot out of the way".

Would he talk about any other demographic in that way? Immigrants - who are often (falsely) accused of hogging beds and resources... would he suggest they "just die"?

The Equality Act is a law which protects you from discrimination on the basis of certain personal characteristics such as age.

So why is it OK to exclude old people from discrimination?

The intergenerational 'war' is stoked by people like him, making such comments. Why should he not be taken to task for it? Why should I give such credence to his 'valid' talking points when he starts from the premise that old people are 'just in the way'?

So yes, I do take him to task for his opinion. And his politics. There are members posting on here whose political stripe is completely opposite to mine - but I respect their views and their opinions because they are not belligerently shouting mantras at others. Which is what RD is doing - he's reviving his "hope I die before I get old" signature line from 'My Generation'. Easy to do when your life has been one of privilege and comparative wealth.

I doubt he will "just die" lying on a hospital trolley in a corridor, or waiting umpteen hours on the floor after a fall.

Perhaps this "sage" should tell us at what age we should "get out of the way"... 60? 70? And then we can inform our offspring to make similar arrangements for their own demise because if we are a burden now - they are surely going to be more of a burden later?

You believe he's raised a valid discussion point - I think he's an idiot who couldn't even figure out that Brexit would put the kybosh on his European touring activities. So much for his political nous.

I also think his "point" has been thought about - quite seriously - by many of us, long before he popped up to tell us about it, when we watched as our own parents died. It kind of occurred to us to think about our own futures and our own mortality. Who knew!

"Let's just die" - "get me and my lot out of the way"

Perhaps he could make a start and set a good example to the rest of us old farts.

But, wait a minute, he'll never know then whether or not we all follow his example, will he! 🤔

Perhaps because some people are posting about culling people, how much 90 year olds can do, how we all pay for the NHS, and even about people with disabilities Dickens. All of which seem pretty irrelevant in my view.

Far from being irrelevant the quoted statement above is onlt too relevant

Roger Daltrey said All us old farts, we really are just in the way of the young now, aren’t we?” The 79-year-old singer added, “For f**k’s sake, Let’s just die! Get me and my lot out the way. It’s crazy.” ^

He is blaming "old farts" for the disintegration of our health and public services so highlighting the immense contribution that old people still make to society is just too relevant.

Callistemon21

^"Let's just die" - "get me and my lot out of the way"^

Perhaps he could make a start and set a good example to the rest of us old farts.

But, wait a minute, he'll never know then whether or not we all follow his example, will he! 🤔

Perhaps he could make a start and set a good example to the rest of us old farts.

... it's a bit of bravado Callistemon21. I believe the intention is to 'impress' somewhat... to shoehorn himself into relevance! I'm pretty sure he feels in relative good health so it's easy-peasy to be flippant about dying when you're not on the cusp of it!

I shall give no more attention to this hypocrite who whilst voting for Brexit argued that the government should have prioritised the “easing of restrictions” for musicians and actors. In 2019 he said that Brexit would have no negative impact on the British music industry. Ha Ha!

I suppose, on a personal level, I feel aggrieved by Daltrey's outburst because up until my mid 50s, my life was just pure slog with little reward. Given an opportunity of a lifetime at age 50 I took the chance I was given (aware of its risks) and left home, country and family to start a new job in another country which promised rewards through application and hard work. I did work hard (very) and it did pay off, and I carried on until I was 67, looking forward to retirement and the rewards of my (and my partner's) hard won 'reward'. In fact, we both carried on working here in the UK, setting up our own technical agency in the same field (and paying taxes), and only gave up when we reached our 80s. So I don't intend to FOAD until I'm good and ready, which will be when my common sense, awareness and intelligence tells me it's time to let go!

He’s 80 himself. The singer of my Generation!