Help with brick walls

Apricot

You do need to be careful with FamilySearch. Some of their transcriptions are very inaccurate.

Janreb. I am sure you know of the Bagley bells at Cropredy Church, cast by William Bagley of Chacombe.

A book called the Church Bells of Northamptonshire by Thomas North has lots about the Bagley bell makers.

The Church Bells of Oxforshire (another book) refers to bells made by Henry Bagley in 1717.

In 1730 Henry Bagley III was living in Witney, Oxon - this may help in finding them between 1600s and 1800s if they moved to Oxfordshire.

Henry Bagley III also lived temporarily in Reading in 1723.

Matthew Bagley made some bells in Banbury in 1753.

I found all the above at google books.com. putting 'Bagley Bells' into the search window.

The family obviously moved around according to where the work was.

Good luck, it's a fascinating aspect of your family tree.

Many thanks for that mischief - yes I have looked at this site and also the Chacombe site where they give a photo of Henry Bagley's grave, which is apparently maintained by the people of the village. I hadn't known about the Oxon connection though - thanks.
There seems to be a fair amount out there about the Bagleys - I just need the missing link!!! I will look at the Oxon Bagleys and see what I can find.

I have taken a fresh look at a brick wall and found that it is now going in a completely different direction. I know my Gt Gt. Grandfather, Richard Thompson, left Pontefract after his wife died in childbirth in 1832 and moved to Kidderminster. He re-married Mary Ann Clarke and made a family there. He had a thriving business as a builder which his son took over on his death in 1877(Richard John Thompson).

We always thought Richard was illegitimate and never knew the name of his father, his mother being Elizabeth Thompson (we thought). That line has been traced back to 1616 in Braithwell. I have never been happy with the tenuous link between Richard and Elizabeth and decided to follow the Kidderminster path.

I put in a search engine "Richard Thompson builder of Kidderminster" and all sorts of information came up. The churches and homes he has built, and an entry in the London Gazette dated June 20th 1862 giving notice of his and a John Thompson's partnership being dissolved by mutual consent. In the 1861 census there is John Thompson living on the same street as Richard (Park Lane) and they are both builders but I just thought it was a coincidence, although they were both born within 8 miles of each other in Yorkshire.

I already have a copy of Richard's will which only mentions members of his family that I know of (but not his son by his first marriage being brought up by his first wife's brother - sad that) so I looked for John Thompson's will. I found it, date of death being 24th May 1867 and probate 27th July 1867 and low and behold Richard Thompson of Kidderminster, Builder is an Executor. They must be related.

I don't know if they were brothers or cousins, there was only 5 years between them. I have now sent off for John's will and I'm hoping that this will throw some light on their relationship. If they are brothers, I may be able to trace Richard's father through John's records.

I don't know if anyone on Gransnet lives in Kidderminster and can throw some more light on this dark part of my family tree but as the first person to start this post mentioned having a fresh look at brick walls, I thought you might find it interesting.

I have another brick wall, this one in Dublin. I'm looking for these children's father, John Andrews, a pawnbroker.
I have found these in censuses and on the Irishgenealogy site, and from family notes left by my uncle:

Children of John Andrews - so far as I know:
Adelaide born 1840 .....Pawnbroker
Arthur ?1841 ....Tea and Spirit Merchant
Frederick 1838-42 ....My Gran Little’s father, Master Painter
Nathaniel 1838 - 1843 ....Went to Vermont, Bookkeeper
John 1848 ....Pawnbroker
Eva 1851 or 1856 ....Professor of Music
Frederick's nephew, Arthur's son, was the piper Liam Andrews. He played to Frederick when he was on his deathbed.
They were all born before birth certificates were introduced in Ireland.

I have no birth date or place for John the father, and I don't know where to go from here!

Hi Oxon70
Do you have membership to Ancestry.com because there is someone on there that have this family and John Andrews the father. Not much info about him, but they think he was born in County Antrim around 1820. You may already know of this.

Thanks, but - sorry, that was me, and I now think it's wrong!
It is still possible, but I can't prove it. I can't get any further back.
Andrews, and John, are such common names.

I too have hit a brick wall. How can I trace people known to have emigrated?
My grandfather had a sister I understood to have lived in South Africa, don't know if she died there, and another sister moved to Toronto in 1912. I would love to trace these people, as my gf was one of 12 children and I am looking them all up in the hope of finding some descendants alive now.
Be glad of any suggestions. Do I need to sign up to ancestry to find them?

Somewhere online are lists of ships passengers. They might just possibly contain these people - though they would not have arrived by then so there would probably be no adress for where they were going to live. You never know though.

Have you looked on the section of Cyndi's List for emigration/immigration websites? There are links to passenger lists on there. I've on idea who Cyndi is or was but there are links there to every FH source you can think of, and links to other lists as well. I've no idea why her name is spelt that way either,

How about Genes Reunited ? You might find out whether someone else has them in their own family tree, and exchange information. I have found third cousins on three different sides and added people to my tree through them and given them information too.

mrsmopp have you tried the NAAIRS site for South African records?
It is fiddly to use and sometimes doesn't work welll, but there is stuff there and you can (which all searches won't do) search for both names of a person at once.
I have used it but after I found a distant relative on Ancestry - I have now MET her, as she and her sister visited last year!

Today, I have emailed RTE, the Irish TV company, about a Roadshow for which they are looking for people with Irish brick walls!

Well it probably won't come to anything , but you never know.

I have hit a brick wall with my grandparents, there is no marriage certificate that ties up. It is difficult to get any further as I only have a first name, Annie 0and a statement that they were married for 12 years on the 1901 census. Any suggestions as to were I go from here would be appreciated.

Parker She may not have been married.

Let me know what definate information you do you have and what resources you have already looked at? I did quite a bit a few years ago. There are ways around some of these problems.

I have found the family in the 1911 census with my father Norman aged 5 living at 125 South Street Manchester with his father Thomas Parkinson and mother Annie. They state they have been married 12 years but I cannot find a marriage certificate. Thus means I cannot trace my grandmothers family. They are no close members of the family left, brother and sister deceased and no children I am in contact with. How I wished I had asked when they were alive

Parker In one post you refer to the 1901 census and in the other to the 1911 one.

I did a search on FreeBMD for a marriage in the years 1889 to 1899 between Thomas Parkinson and Annie and there was such a marriage in Manchester in 1891. See this page

Could they have been exaggerating how long they had been married - maybe their first child arrived a bit too smartly?

parker I've had another search, for children registered as Herety in the years 1888 to 1891 in Manchester, and freeBMD came up with Thomas in the second quarter of 1888 and Mary in the fourth quarter of 1891. Did they appear in the family at the census you have?

Parker I am posting this in full as others may be able to help with this by a pooling of brains!

This is a bit vague isn’t it? Just “T Parkinson” on the census is not helpful Mr Enumerator !

Where did you get your dad’s mum’s name as Annie O from? Was that Norman’s birth certificate?

I have looked at the reference on the 1911 census. With your father Norman age 5. His dad is only down as T Parkinson.
Do you have your dad’s birth and/or death certificate his date of birth should be on there? You really need Norman’s birth certificate. That should list his father’s first name and mothers name. (My PGMs birth cert from 1897 had all this info. This would be a very big help.
Do you know even roughly by a year or so when your pgm Annie (dads mum) died if you had that certificate it whould have her dob and family details on.
I tried looking on the 1901 census but without Norman’s dad’s first name that is too vague.
Do you know if Norman & co had any younger siblings? After 1911 a mum’s name appeared on the birth indexes and not just the certificate.
Do you have family stories or anecdotes etc that may lend some clues to where they were living at any particular time.

A few thoughts..
There seem to be a lot of crossings out by the enumerator on the census original? Were details put in by mistake? If so it may mean that this information is unreliable. Annie is down as 39 yrs, it seems quite late in those days for having kids if the first one Mary was only 8yrs old.
Had Annie been married before?
Try and give us a bit more information about Normans parent’s names or we are totally stuck.

Keep me posted on this.
(Names can be unreliable my dad's 1915 onwards foster mum "Alice" turned out to have been named on census and at birth as Martha Maria with a sister 2 yrs younger called Martha.)

Further to my previous post - after reading from Nelliemoser that Annie was said to be 39 in 1911, I searched FreeBMS for an Annie Herety born in 1871-1873, and did not find one, so that marriage in 1891 between Thomas Parkinson and Annie Herety was probably not the people that Parker is looking for.

But nothing is certain.

Elegran do we know for sure he was Thomas? I didn't get that information from anywhere I could find. ??

There was a marriage between a Thomas Parkinson and an Annie Herety in Manchester in the June quarter of 1891 (I searched on FreeBMD ) but whether it was the same Thomas Parkinson, and whether the Annie who was living at 125 South Street Manchester with Thomas Parkinson and their children was born as Annie Herety is another question.

One thing I've found with brick walls is to search using variations of spellings, variations of birth date and even places of birth. The census returns can be quite misleading, for various reasons. Writing and spelling weren't exactly a strong point and people do lie about their age sometimes. Although one relative was apparently a servant at age 4 ! This was crossed out later but not corrected; it should have said 14.
I was very puzzled when my great-grandfather simply didn't seem to appear on one census. Ok he could have been sleeping rough that night I suppose, but then I found someone of his name and place of birth but seeming to be older than he should have been. It does appear to be him though, for various reasons, so we have to make "best guesses" often. The bigger problem I have is that I am restricted to what I can find online, and sometimes information is simply not available. Some records have been lost in fires, which doesn't help.

I have had an interest in family history for many years and the information is there to get back to the 1840s.
It can be a challenge at times and you may need to travel to the different archives.
Records are on film or fiche, hand writing can be difficult to read, bad copies illegible.
Pre registration you are in Parish records which produces additional problems for researchers. I was fortunate enough to have the records indexed for my family line.

When you get back to the early 1700 in the original Parish registers you'll find there is little information say for a marriage it may just show only the bride and grooms names.

Bibles can be a good source of information if your family have one.

If you have title, wealth or property you can probably get back further, if you are from an ordinary working family the chances are remote because you have to prove the people you find are your ancestors.

Things to take into account when researching.

People lie especially about their age on census forms.
Place of birth can be different on the following census.
When people are missing off census records, they could have died, moved away for good or for a night.

The spelling of names can change over the years.
People couldn't read or write so the spelling was based on the sound of a name given by the people say registering a birth, the registrar just entered as it sounded.

Don't make assumptions, whatever your granny told you.

Always check either side of expected dates for births/baptism marriages deaths. Many people married after births.

Family births you may find the same Christian name for more than one birth when a child as died in infancy.

Parish records, some people baptised all the children at the same time years later especially if money was tight. Remember people had to walk miles if they were in rural areas to a church.
The record will not always tell you the date of birth only the baptism date.

I have hit a brick wall too. I've done family history for a few years but this really has beaten me for a long time now.

My great great grandfather was Hugh John Hughes. I can't find a birth after looking for a good couple of years now. I have no idea if he was born in England or Wales.

However, he lived at 41 Church Street, Fleetwood, Lancashire and was a joiner when he married Catherine Smith (widow maiden name Sanderson) in 1873. She had several children to her first husband Robert Smith. On the marriage cert it says his father was Robert Hughes, a farmer.

On the 1881 census it says Catherine Smith and Smith has a line through it and it says Hughes. It says she is the head of the household, it then says widow which has a line through it and then has married. It also says occupation housekeeper and that too has a line through it.

I think that she lived at his home as a housekeeper and got pregnant with my great grandfather Henry Wynn Hughes and they got married I think about 3 months before he was born.

I can't find a birth for Hugh John Hughes, he was a widow on his marriage cert to Catherine but I can't find a first marriage and he doesn't appear to be on any census forms and I can't find a death. I've looked everywhere I can think of, I use Ancestry and I looked on Find My Past and I have looked on Church records. Again, I have only found the marriage to Catherine.

Sorry that was a long one. I can't think of anywhere else to look and wonder if anyone has any ideas please.

minder Hugh Hughes seem like needles in haystacks! Does it say how old he was at that marriage? Do you have a death cert for him with a dob on? He could have been born before registration became obligatory though. Presumably he died between 1873 and 1881

Too many Welsh people seem to have the the same fairly small range of surnames. It makes family history very difficult

I have a Hugh Dean marrying a Mary Williams in Chester around 1794. Mary Williams's in the Chester area are too many to identify further.
I have got further back with my more rural Ag labs in Leicestershire than with these, sophisticated Chester types.