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Grandparents' rights/family law webchat - Weds 10 July 4.30-5.30pm

(42 Posts)
CariGransnet (GNHQ) Tue 02-Jul-13 08:36:38

What rights do grandparents actually have? What can you try if you have been alienated from your grandchild? David Vavrecka is joining us to answer these and any other family law questions on Weds 10 July.

David is an experienced barrister based at Coram Chambers in London and has practiced in the area of family law for over 20 years, with expertise across all areas of both domestic and international proceedings involving children

He has built up expertise in all types of family law cases involving children, acting regularly for all parties: that includes parents, grandparents, foster parents, as well as children and local authorities.

David is also a part time judge, so has experience from the other side of the bench, and specialises in trying cases about children

Minty Tue 02-Jul-13 09:23:59

Those of us involved in denied contact know that a grandparents has NO automatic legal right to see their grandchildren.
Of course you can go through the courts, but is that the way forward?
It could cost you your life savings and cost you huge emotional stress, so go into it with both eyes open.
I really hope that David Vavrecka, is honest about costs and outcomes, bearing in mind his profession?
Me cynical, I most certainly am.
Perhaps he would answer the question," If a contact order is breached, what will be the consequence be for the person breaking that order, the reality not the book answer?"

Maniac Tue 02-Jul-13 13:13:20

Totally agree with Minty

David .Please don't waste too much of your precious time on things we already know. Many 'denied contact' Grans are well-informed on these issues.

I have 2 letters from Hon Michael Gove telling me I can apply to courts for contact .-but not how contact orders can be enforced!

When my son was refused contact in family court his solicitor/barrister
were 'Staggered' and 'Baffled' at judge's attitude.
As well as lies about my son I was accused of attempted abduction of GS which I swear is a downright lie
I question how false allegations against father/grandparents and alienation of child can be challenged?

MiceElf Tue 02-Jul-13 14:12:10

We are all familiar with the lawyers who quite correctly say: My instructions are.......

And indeed, they have a duty to represent their clients and take instructions.

But how can any lawyer justify putting forward 'instructions' which are self evidently untruthful and worse, make unsubstantiated allegations against others which are allowed to go unchallenged.

imbroglio Tue 02-Jul-13 18:59:53

I feel for you as we are about to be involved in a child pre-care conference which has been brought on a totally false premise. We were advised to contact a lawyer which we did, and after the initial introduction, we were told and I quote, "if social workers say jump ,we say, how high??? He meant lawyers, so what hope have we of them speaking for us? I have researched this corrupt system and been absolutely blown away at the so-called legal process in this country. I believe the outcome is decided before court, between the "mega bucks" cohorts who all agree on penance of "consequences" if they don't. I have written reports from so-called professionals giving our child true and glowing assessments and then to see others from the same person repudiating that report. God help us all, and the taxpayers who fund it all.

libertybodice Thu 04-Jul-13 18:09:38

Hello David

My son and daughter-in-law have (mutually) decided to separate. They have two children under 5. At the moment they are getting on well enough and have agreed in principle what they will do with the house, custody and so on. Given this do they need a lawyer to arrange the divorce or can they save money by doing it themselves (I appreciate your personal view may favour the legal route but would appreciate objective view!)

leila Thu 04-Jul-13 18:14:52

I would appreciate some guidance on how custody arrangements from a legal perspective. Is it automatic that a mother has the advantage in terms of the children living with her? It seems very unfair that many hands-on fathers are reduced to seeing their children every other weekend even if they have played no part in the breakdown of the relationship

swizzle Thu 04-Jul-13 18:18:36

Have you (as a lawyer) managed to secure access for grandparents to their grandchildren when it has previously been denied? It would be uplifting to know that some stories have happy endings

lollybushell Sat 06-Jul-13 19:38:39

I wonder if anyone has ever approached this subject from the perspective of the grandchildren. There is an organisation in the USA called AGA alienation of grandparents anonymous. This situation unfortunately is worldwide and so many of us are in this sad situation. I am wondering what the children feel about this. Has anyone got experience of grandchildren coming to find their grandparents when they are older and did they see this alienation as a form of abuse ? I would be pleased to hear any success stories and to know how grandchildren feel about their parents not allowing them to see their grandparents.

Maniac Sun 07-Jul-13 09:09:34

Heard that 1 in 4 under 16's have separated parents.A campaign 'Kids in the Middle'is planned to give them a voice.
David do you know anything about this?

cookies Mon 08-Jul-13 13:22:19

Hi David. I'm not really sure if this is your remit, but I'll give it a shot. DH and I haven't written a will. In the event that something was to happen to both of us, who would our son go to? Would he automatically go to his grandparents - and if so - which set of grandparents? Is there a law on this kind of thing? <clueless>

ticktock Mon 08-Jul-13 13:27:27

In the eyes of the law - is it better to be married?

Minty Mon 08-Jul-13 13:58:51

lollybushell,
Maybe I can answer your question in part.
Yes, some grandparents are reunited with their grandchildren, often when they are in their teenage years.
They do understand that they have been alienated by their resident parent, which causes untold damage to them, the person they have loved and trusted has let them down and lied to them.
Building up a relationship which has been so traumatic takes sensitivity and patience.
So yes there are positive stories out there.

iMac Tue 09-Jul-13 09:43:37

Is it a myth that the mother nearly always gets custody of the child?

navelgazer Tue 09-Jul-13 11:39:13

Can I ask please where do you stand on the wider family being first consideration when a child cannot remain with its parents? To me it makes absolute sense that if there are grandparents or other relatives who are in a position to care for the child/ren they should do so but I am not sure that the law would always agree?

CariGransnet (GNHQ) Wed 10-Jul-13 16:32:23

David is here and ready to answer questions so delighted to hand over to him right now

Iwasframed Wed 10-Jul-13 16:37:07

I want to ask - I hope this is on your patch - about whether I need a lasting power of attorney for my mother? We already have an enduring power of attorney from way back and I'm not clear why doctors who might be treating my mum wouldn't consult me and my brother as a matter of course and why we wouldn't be able to express her wishes (which are very clearly and always have been for no invasive treatment or major operations).

Andimerry Wed 10-Jul-13 16:44:59

My daughter's partner has a child as a result of a very brief affair he had shortly before he met her. He has always paid for his son and seen him as often as possible - which has meant travelling several hours in an evening because they live in another town - but the child's mother often refuses contact at the last minute. She is particularly prone to do this when my daughter has planned something - a family party, a weekend away. The mother seems to take pleasure in wrecking the family's arrangements.

I would like my daughter's partner to stand up to this woman more and threaten to get legal enforcement but (I think influenced by fathers for Justice publicity) he thinks that fathers are not given priority by the courts and he might end up not seeing his son at all.

I think this is ridiculous given how exemplary his behaviour has been. What can I say to persuade him?

DavidVavrecka Wed 10-Jul-13 16:46:54

Minty

Those of us involved in denied contact know that a grandparents has NO automatic legal right to see their grandchildren.
Of course you can go through the courts, but is that the way forward?
It could cost you your life savings and cost you huge emotional stress, so go into it with both eyes open.
I really hope that David Vavrecka, is honest about costs and outcomes, bearing in mind his profession?
Me cynical, I most certainly am.
Perhaps he would answer the question," If a contact order is breached, what will be the consequence be for the person breaking that order, the reality not the book answer?"

Hi Minty,
It's true that grandparents have no 'rights' over and above anyone else, in the sense that if do make an application to the court, you still need permission to make the application (called 'leave'). However, the court will take account of the connection and blood tie, and this will be an important factor when the court comes to consider whether it is in the child's best interests to order contact.
As for costs, I can see this is a common theme of many of the posts, and legal costs are obviously seen as a major disincentive to going to court. So, yes, the cost of going to court can seem very large, but as a last resort, it may be a step many of you will consider you want to or have to take. Many solicitors will offer fixed fees, and discounts for members of organisations (like the Grandparents Association). It is also worth shopping around and seeing if you can negotiate a better deal from a competitor. So costs of between £500-£2000 for the initial stage, of receiving advice and upto the first hearing may give some idea of the scale of costs. Barristers can now also accept instructions direct from members of the public (Direct Access) which can also cut the costs
As for enforcement- this is the hardest nut to crack, and the courts are trying hard, and new powers allow courts to impose conditions (including unpaid work or attending parenting programmes) as well as committing parents to prison in extreme cases. If grandparents are determined to enforce their hard won contact orders, I would hope they will end up being successful- but it can be a long and arduous journey!

closetgran Wed 10-Jul-13 16:52:33

David, my question is about transfer of money between generations. The old are always being encouraged to downshift and my mother has recently done so and handed over to her children some of the proceeds of the sale of her house. She is independent and perfectly competent at the moment, although showing some signs of confusion (repetition etc) which worry us. In the worst case that she were to need care at some point, what would be the status of the money that had been handed over - would the local authority seek to reclaim it? What if it had been spent?!

DavidVavrecka Wed 10-Jul-13 16:53:23

Maniac

Totally agree with Minty

David .Please don't waste too much of your precious time on things we already know. Many 'denied contact' Grans are well-informed on these issues.

I have 2 letters from Hon Michael Gove telling me I can apply to courts for contact .-but not how contact orders can be enforced!

When my son was refused contact in family court his solicitor/barrister
were 'Staggered' and 'Baffled' at judge's attitude.
As well as lies about my son I was accused of attempted abduction of GS which I swear is a downright lie
I question how false allegations against father/grandparents and alienation of child can be challenged?

Dear Maniac
I sense your frustration, which at times I share. The difficulty is that the court always has many different and conflicting voices before it, all wanting a different outcome, and all claiming to be acting in the best interests of the child. Investigating and resolving disputed cases is time consuming and without knowing the details of your case, I suspect the Court was acting cautiously because someone in the case was making allegations that needed investigating.
As for challenging false allegations, it is possible for the person falsely accused, if they are not a party, to become a witness and be called to court to give evidence, which will enable the court to decide the truth of the allegation. In some cases, you can apply to become an intervenor, which allows you to see the papers in the case, and to be represented at the hearing which is investigating serious allegations

DavidVavrecka Wed 10-Jul-13 16:56:55

MiceElf

We are all familiar with the lawyers who quite correctly say: My instructions are.......

And indeed, they have a duty to represent their clients and take instructions.

But how can any lawyer justify putting forward 'instructions' which are self evidently untruthful and worse, make unsubstantiated allegations against others which are allowed to go unchallenged.

Hi MiceElf
Sorry - representing people is my job. I am not the judge, and I do not sit in judgment on my clients. If a client is putting forward an obvious untruth, any lawyer representing them will challenge the client and their 'instructions', and give firm advice about the consequences. I can't speak for all the lawyers out there, but I work very hard to make sure clients give realistic instructions and understand the consequences of their actions

frangipane Wed 10-Jul-13 17:00:14

My daughter is talking about doing the paperwork for her own divorce. The separation is pretty amicable and they are agreed that they are both going to look after the children (I have my reservations about this - children going backwards and forwards all the time - but they're not listening to me).

Is this easily done? Is it wise?

DavidVavrecka Wed 10-Jul-13 17:03:34

libertybodice

Hello David

My son and daughter-in-law have (mutually) decided to separate. They have two children under 5. At the moment they are getting on well enough and have agreed in principle what they will do with the house, custody and so on. Given this do they need a lawyer to arrange the divorce or can they save money by doing it themselves (I appreciate your personal view may favour the legal route but would appreciate objective view!)

Hello libertybodice
I always start be encouraging all my clients to try and deal with things amicably and without going near any courts. I know most of you will be surprised to hear that, but I have enough clients and don't need to encourage any more people to litigate.
So yes, they can try and deal with things as much as possible without a lawyer, but as regards the division of assets (eg the house), they may need a lawyer to assist with some aspects of this. Given I know nothing about the complexity of the couple's finances, I think they both need to consider whether they may need independent legal advice about their proposed agreement.
Certainly the children's side does not need to go near any court, but I always suggest any agreement reached should be recorded in writing, so that if the arrangement does break down and someone takes it to court, there is a clear record of what they actually agreed.

DavidVavrecka Wed 10-Jul-13 17:06:35

Iwasframed

I want to ask - I hope this is on your patch - about whether I need a lasting power of attorney for my mother? We already have an enduring power of attorney from way back and I'm not clear why doctors who might be treating my mum wouldn't consult me and my brother as a matter of course and why we wouldn't be able to express her wishes (which are very clearly and always have been for no invasive treatment or major operations).

I always advise updating powers of attorney, particularly as circumstances change, so that you can then be sure that you are consulted in related to treatment.