help! Advice about difficult grandma

Goodness, a lot going on here, I'm no judge but at first reading it seems to me as if you are handling things pretty well.

She should never criticise another member of the family to the children, that is definitely not on.

Not sure I follow "she never comes to the house" then "she did not come to see the children for weeks" then "she turned up the other day." Perhaps you all need a cooling off period?

I probably wasn’t that clear. I just meant that after we arranged for her to come and see the children, she arrived with a person we had never met before without letting us know/asking if this was ok.

First, congratulations, your handling of this very difficult situation has been impeccable, but clearly the strain of this is causing you immense stress.

I utterly agree that a grandparent only wanting to see the children without their parents is a worry. An occasional afternoon, is one thing, all the time is odd.

I confess when a MiL who has been fine with her son and family starts acting like this, one of one's first thoughts is mental illness of some kind, you do not mention your MiL's age, in her 50s I would guess. Could this change in her behaviour be linked to her menopause in any way. Some women do indeed suffer from huge variations of mood, anxiety and depression during this period and this could explain her behaviour. It might be worth thinking about.

But even then you are faced with having to deal with the effects and I confess, having no experience of this kind of situation as either a DiL or a MiL and I am not sure how to advise. Perhaps a GN member unfortunate to enough to suffer mood swings during the menopause, or to have to deal with it with others will come on board this thread and offer you advice.

You say that you used to think she was lovely. People don't change so drastically for no reason and I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but from how you describe her behaviour, I think that there is a possibility of some sort of psychosis that is outside of her control.

My Mum had Alzheimers but we didn't twig for ages,because she was always a bit dippy and forgetful. But when she started claiming that things had happened that hadn't, and making untrue accusations of mistreatment, we got her to the GP who diagnosed dementia.

Can you and your Husband have a calm heart to heart with her and encourage her to speak with her GP? It might not be dementia, it could be something else that is easily treatable. She might even already know if there is a mental/physical health problem and if you can show her that you are worried about her (as opposed to not trusting her) she may open up and confide in you and you can start building bridges.

In the meantime, try to keep in mind that it is the behaviour that is the problem, not the person. If nothing else, you will be demonstrating to your children how important it is to be kind to others in this world.

However you decide to tackle this,I hope it works out for you.
Goodluck

Thank you for your comment. I did originally think that her behaviour could be the start of dementia or a mental health problem. However information about how she was when she divorced from her husband came out and it sounds like she acted in a similar kind of way and that was 30 odd years ago. I do genuinely think she has some mental health issues. We have spoken to other family members who see it too but she is so paranoid about people talking about her and so sensitive to any kind of what she perceives to be criticism that she won’t accept or acknowledge there is anything wrong with her which makes it very difficult to get her to get some help/support.
She has been so horrible to my husband that he would find it difficult to have a heart to heart with her now which is incredibily sad.
It is definitely something to keep in mind though especially as you saw similar behaviours in your mum. Thanks for your advice.

Pancake, what an awful situation for you and your Dh, as others have already said, you are handling it as well as you can.
I agree that you can't allow your Mil access to your Dc on her own, so I would just continue with allowing her to visit her Gc at your home.
You mentioned the one visit, when she brought the friend with her.
How did that visit go?

Thanks for your reply Monica. She is past the menopause I would think. I do think it’s weird how she used to be pleasant but over time seems more and more jealous and resentful. to me it does indicate some sort of mental health problem. However when my husband suggested this she has taken great offence. One point my husband did manage to talk her into seeing a therapist but after he left she changed her mind, never went through with it and twisted everything to make out there was nothing wrong with her and that we have caused the situation because we hate her. It’s been really awful I wish it was something that she might get through but without acknowledgement of the fact it is her own thoughts/feelings that have caused this situation, I’m not sure how we can move on.

It actually went better than expected. It was a little awkward but we were all pleasant to each other. She stayed for about an hour and saw the children. She did try and make some comments about the children going to her house and what they used to do there but it kind of went over the children’s heads and they didn’t really take the bait.
I think you’re right the best thing to do is to allow her to see the children at ours. I’m just worried that she’s not happy with this arrangement and it is quite stressful for us but we don’t really have another option in the circumstances. It’s reassuring to know others would do the same thing though so thank you.

Thanks for your reply Monica. She is past the menopause I would think. I do think it’s weird how she used to be pleasant but over time seems more and more jealous and resentful. to me it does indicate some sort of mental health problem. However when my husband suggested this she has taken great offence. One point my husband did manage to talk her into seeing a therapist but after he left she changed her mind, never went through with it and twisted everything to make out there was nothing wrong with her and that we have caused the situation because we hate her. It’s been really awful I wish it was something that she might get through but without acknowledgement of the fact it is her own thoughts/feelings that have caused this situation, I’m not sure how we can move on.

Yes! That's all you can do, just let her see the children at yours.
Stop worrying about her now! You and your Dh have done everything that you can.
As you say, if she gets angry if your Dh suggests that she may be ill and needs to see a Doctor, there's not much more you can do.
You do seem like a lovely, caring Dil, most would not have put up with a fraction of this.

Pancakehouse menopausal problems can extend for a decade or so either side of the menopause.

I do not think anyone likes to be told that they may be mentally ill and her reactions to that suggestion do not surprise me. The problem is that one of the symptoms of mental illness is a complete loss of self-knowledge and denial of the problem.

I think in a situation like this, and I speak from a stance of absolutely no experience. Is, first, to ignore anything she says to other people about you. She is clearly seen as a difficult women, so it is unlikely people will judge you and if they do. so what?

I suspect that the problem is never going to go away, so that you need to think of ways of mitigating and defusing the stress she is causing, rather than hoping for a solution.

One way forward would be to draw up a time table for her visits - every Sunday afternoon between 3.00 and 6.00 for example, with your DH ringing her mid-week for 10 minutes or so. Speaking as the mother of a son, short uninformative calls from sons are par for the course. Do not let her mess about with the timetable. She comes at a time agreed or she doesn't see them until the next agreed date. That way you both distance yourself from her, but keep in contact.

Do not mention your parents to her or when they visit you or you visit them. If she criticises them in the children's presence, tell her to stop doing it and take the children elsewhere, if you can.

I think the importance of grandparents in a child's life can be over estimated. My DH grew up completely without grandparents. 3 had died and the fourth remarried, started a new family and had no interest in his grandchildren. It did DH no psychological harm at all (that I have noticed) and if push comes to shove I think it would be better to keep the children away from a grandmother who is acting as she is, rather than exposing them to someone who is as mentally unstable as she sounds. Sadly, for all of you, I think you need to erect a barrier around yourselves and your family and only let her through if she obeys the rules.

1. Don't tell her what you're doing with your parents.

2. I agree with the schedule. BUT you need to ensure that you are always present when she is with the children. If she starts trying to make them feel guilty or she starts moaning about how she never sees them, etc., you end the visit.

3. DO NOT allow her to be alone with the children at her home. I too suspect she might not be mentally stable. At the very least, she's been behaving inappropriately (i.e. with the guilt trips).

Rather than suggesting that she might have a mental illness, it might have gone over better if you said you had noticed these things and wondered if she should see her GP. You could have explained that it's not that you think she's crazy or anything but rather that sometimes older people can have physical illnesses that cause unusual sadness and other unusual behaviours. (This is a completely true statement. Electrolyte imbalances, dehydration, constipation, and infections can ALL cause behavioural issues in older people and are physical problems that can often be easily fixed.) That way she might have been less sensitive about it. Unfortunately, as long as she's mentally competent, whether or not to see her provider is her decision. What you can do is speak to her provider privately and advise them that you've noticed these unusual behaviours. Obviously, the provider won't be able to tell you anything about her medical condition, but they will be alerted to what's going on and the need to follow up on it the next time she comes in.

Thos of us dealing with Narcissists and there are quite a few of Gransnet, will see similarities. Read about Narcissism and see if any of it fits your MIL. It could also have a menopasual component.

Then, what to do about it? You've done a brilliant job so far and I feel so sorry that your dear husband was so hurt by his mother. However, you are united in not wanting her to see the children unsupervised and I only wish my darling grandson could have been spared the vitriolic rantings of his grandma which have caused so many problems.

Our counsellor recommended no contact "to cut off the supply" as Narcissists need to hurt someone for their personal power and they are never, ever wrong.
Sadly, his Mum didn't agree until 2 years damage had been done.

Protect your children. It sounds as if they've just started school so are quite young.
They don't need this and it will damage them if contact is kept up - as it has with my DGS.
Thank goodness for your Mum, at least they'll have one good Nana and that's all they need.

Pancakehouse, what an awful lot of emotional drama for you all to contend with!

Well done for not escalating it, you sound very caring.

Suggesting someone is mentally ill or a confirmed narcissist is very damning and without real justification.

I can imagine if someone is told they should see a therapist or Dr. or seem's to be suffering mental/emotional impairment, a range of normal reactions is appropriate. Maybe to laugh or become indignant. To become angry isn't so strange, but does point to a resistance to listen, I agree.

After all none of us is a) qualified, and b) we have only this description of her to go by (I'm sure this is the situation as you see it and I accept your explanation to be honestly put).

Please don't forget she brought your husband up and helped him become the loving man he is today.

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Could I play devils advocate and suggest a different view?

You and your family are a loving confident unit.
You and your's are SAFE inside that unit.

She is not. Clearly your MIL does not for what ever reason (imagined or real) feel part of that.

She has bottled up this feeling for so long (as I said, not necessarily the truth, just how she feels} and has let it dictate her behaviour.

Could she have acted out of fear? Fear of loss (imagined or otherwise)?

Loss of her importance (as she perceived it) to you all or a declining of her place in your affections?

I don't know why she would feel that way at this time, maybe from her own mistaken thoughts (as you think) or from misjudged unintentional situations brought about by you and her son?

She seems to me to be acting like a cornered animal. Trying to protect HER rights (as she see's it).

In truth you don't seem to need her for anything much, you could all get by without her quite well.
Perhaps she can see/sense that, and that makes her behave in a OTT defensive manner.

Its NOT your fault if you all get along happily with or without her, it just is what it is.

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Does she just want to feel needed I wonder?

Is it possible you could do for her the most generous of things, and offer her MORE time with you and the family?

Limited to a short period of time, perhaps 1month?

A trial run so to speak!

Not necessarily the children on their own, but perhaps going out together a little more?
Be safe, do things on your terms, but think outside the box a little. Give her more time with you all than she's getting now. Include your mother in these occasions too.

Don't limit if possible, what she wants to do. Ask her what she'd like!

Then see what happens next and reassess the situation.

How lovely would it be if she blossomed under your kindness!

Your children would see a kind caring example of how to handle a difficult relationship in action.

Imagine how you and your husband would feel, knowing you'd have given your best for her.

And if she turns out to be the MIL from hell intent on causing herself and you as much harm as possible, what have you lost.....one month of your time, and some of your patience.

A small price to pay to be able to make responsible guilt free choices over her future with your family.

Who knows she may decide wants LESS to do with you all as a result!!!!

Wishing you so much good luck

I totally agree with BradfordLass72.

Narcissistic personality disorder vs. other mental health disorder - The key would be knowing which of these applies to your MIL. I don't know her but from what you're mentioned she sounds more like a narcissist to me. One whose exceptionally great at gas lighting and manipulating others with unnecessary guilt trips.

Your best option would be to protect your children (at all/any cost) -
and cut her off if you determine that she's a narcissist. Such people rarely if ever change. Your relationship with your children will always be more important than your relationship with her as your MIL. Don't let her actions damage them.

1. "....trying to turn my husband against me, then threatening to take us to court so she could have the kids at her house. She was insisting that she would tell the children everything when she sees them despite the fact it would upset them to know we have all fallen out.
..."

2. "..There are other reasons too such as the way she tries to get the children to feel guilty when they don’t see her and how she plays the victim. She’s also puts my mum down to the kids even though she has never done anything wrong.,."

These are factors that would make me cut her off immediately AND completely. Irrespective of whether or not she was a narcissist or had some other mental health problems. None of what she's doing is in the best interest of your children. Grandparents area supposed to play a supportive role to their AC family, and influence their grandchildren positively. The basis of their importance in your grandchildrens life ceases to hold any worthwhile meaning once they try to turn the parents against one another, threaten to take the parents to court to have your children on their terms, or try to brainwash the children with guilt trips simply for thy are not getting their way.

I'd further suggest that you keep all communication with her via text or email so that it can remain documented, and used when the need arises - or if she does go to court to try and get your children in her house without parental supervision. Record phone calls as needed too if she keeps on gas lighting. Her actions comes across as being extremely toxic.

Just another thought, best not to go to her GP and 'forewarn' the practise about her behaviour, I think.

After all I'm sure most of us wouldn't want other's to meddle behind our backs about anything including non-expert's ideas about our health.

That would be un-excusable behaviour IMV.

I wonder what happened to the old adage 'Think before you jump'......don't hear it said much nowadays.

Wishing you and your family all the very best, what ever the outcome.

Sorry inexcusable!!!

Namsnanny a very wise post with reference to your "devil's advocate" points! Worth thinking about, Pancake?

I am not completely convinced that cut off is the right thing quite yet, if only because there is no diagnosis ...and I do wonder if mental illness is the cause. However I totally agree with LLL, and others, that at the moment her behaviours are most definitely not in the interests of your children. They must be your first priority so IF you do decide to see her, it must always be in your presence at your house. If she doesn't like that/doesn't agree then that is her choice and little you can do about it. Those are your terms and in the present situation, those must be adhered to.

I also think it would be wise to communicate by text/email as suggested by others, so that there is a record, as sadly she seems capable of making outrageous claims about you, and written communication would provide back up on your version

Thank you everyone for giving your opinions and advice it is very much appreciated. It seems to be an impossible situation and I think all we can do for now is let her see the children on our terms rather than hers. My husband is so upset with her due to the way she has behaved and things she’s said to him. She has shown no remorse or even acknowledgement that she has done anything wrong.
namsnanny we have considered contacting her gp when this first happened as we were worried about her. However we weren’t sure where her doctors was and after considering it I think it would have made matters worse. We also tried to see her more and involve her in our lives before this latest meltdown - she doesn’t enjoy it when it involves other family members and acts rude or arrogant at times so that is not enjoyable. Other times she makes excuses why she can’t come even when it’s just us. We feel she doesn’t enjoy being with the children as much when we are there because the children act differently than they do when they have them on their own (ie they want to talk to us more so she gets jealous). Obviously this is just guessing as we don’t know what’s going on in her mind it’s just how it seems.
Other family members can see that it’s all in her head and they have tried to speak to her but she’s not listened to anyone. She’s taken it as we have turned them against her rather than us trying to get her to see sense so we can try and sort things out.
We have begun to keep correspondence electronic now since she mentioned court. Hopefully she will calm down and one day reflect on things but until then our priority is keeping our children safe.
Thanks again everyone x

I think limiting visits and Always with you present is the correct move right now. I would However change the venue to a restaurant.

I wouldn’t want someone who treated my family so poorly in my safe nice house. If monthly visits go well, she can “earn” her invite back. Restaurant visits also have the double benefit of putting an end time on the visit, and witnessed if she behaves poorly.

I would speak with an attorney before putting her on any sort of visitation schedule. She sounds quite unstable. I wouldn’t allow her near your children, supervised or otherwise, until she had gone to her GP and a psychologist for a full work up and started therapy. Your children don’t need a relationship with someone as unstable and unkind as she seems to be towards you and your husband.

Just a wee note to those who feel 'no contact' is a poor option.

It's a parents' job to protect their children from whatever harm presents itself.

If a grandmother (or anyone) repeatedly hits a little child for no reason and won't stop, would you continue letting the child see them?

Verbal abuse is no different and in fact can go very deep indeed. Making a child feel guilty for no reason other than for adult personal power is reprehensible and typical NPD behaviour. But labels don’t matter - it is the action which is evil.

It has been my experience that damage done by this kind of grandmother and parent (whom the child expects to be loved by) can and does do untold harm.

My beloved GS has talked about killing himself in moments of distress after a visit to his other grandma....and he was only just 7 at that time. He is still suffering.

'No contact' is infinitely better than damaging contact.