Oops

Clearly the parents do have a responsibility: to make sure that they do not take children to places where dogs are not under control (although they should not have to do that of course) and in this instance to abide by the rules that the OP had set for keeping the children safe - although I suspect that these were not clear and definitively stated to the parents.

It is not the responsibility of people to make themselves safe from dogs (unless of course they are wild dogs) - it is the responsibility of the owners to not allow their dogs to be a nuisance or a danger to others.

Smileless2012

In this situation I disagree Luckygirl. It's the children's parents to take responsibility which includes the father, especially when the father is behaving like a child encouraging his small children to behave inappropriately and deliberately giving them access to a room the dogs were placed in, to keep them away from the children.

I agree Smileless in this situation.

Germanshepherdsmum

It seems to me that the sil is the brat who needs to be disciplined.

Spot on GSM I would be having words about that.

In this situation I disagree Luckygirl. It's the children's parents to take responsibility which includes the father, especially when the father is behaving like a child encouraging his small children to behave inappropriately and deliberately giving them access to a room the dogs were placed in, to keep them away from the children.

Well the GC do need to be taught how to behave around and treat animals Luckygirl, treat the OP's dogs with kindness and respect and not be allowed to run riot.

The responsibility for keeping children (and adults) safe from dogs rests fairly and squarely with dog owners and no-one else.

From previous conversations on this forum it is clear that the responsible dog owners on this site accept that responsibility and act accordingly.

It is not up to others to learn how to act around dogs; it is up to owners to keep others safe.

I have small, very sweet dogs - until they're small and very wild. Animals are animals, people never know what may provoke them.

You have quite a disrespectful son in law and an oblivious daughter, it seems to me they are the problem. Perhaps don't have them stay at yours, hotels exist for reasons. Or send the dogs to a facility.

I'd be scared to bits if our GC, GGC acted out near our dogs. The solution is yours - who is allowed over, who is in charge.

My comments above came over more harshly than intended in so far as...

*Yes children do need to be taught about dangers
*Your SIL is a big part of the problem

Which is why clear adult communication about what will and will not happen in your home needs to be had!

Explain the "brat" comment as suggested by others as part of of any discussions. Good luck

Your original post OP does put a different slant on things - including your feeling of guilt at referring to the “brats” and googling advice.
You can’t blame people for reacting to that. A locked room should stay precisely that and if you can’t stand up to your SIL in your own house then he is not showing proper manners or respect.
I too wonder where your D was in all this?

Adgm

My dogs slept in a separate room with a key lock or in the garden. My son in law thought nothing of it to let them in the room and then let them chase them round the garden. I was literally saying all the time let’s leave the dogs aloe but it was a fun game for them and I just do t see what I should have r allowed that! They literally didn’t want any part of it and there was no need to go near them!

So you should have said to your SIL "the children cannot do that because ....."" and then detail your concerns re risk to GC if dogs are provoked etc. Frankly the adults in this scenario need to communicate like adults!!!

I also suggest you take the advice that VioketSky gave in her first post upthread!

Adgm

My dogs slept in a separate room with a key lock or in the garden. My son in law thought nothing of it to let them in the room and then let them chase them round the garden. I was literally saying all the time let’s leave the dogs aloe but it was a fun game for them and I just do t see what I should have r allowed that! They literally didn’t want any part of it and there was no need to go near them!

So don't let your son in law have a key to the locked room. If the children go into the garden and the dogs are there put the dogs inside.
The dogs and gc HAVE to be kept apart. Yes they have to be taught about how to treat animals and how to keep themselves safe from lots of dangers, but they are just too little to do this for themselves yet.
Where is your daughter in all of this?

Well the GC do need to be taught how to behave around and treat animals Luckygirl, treat the OP's dogs with kindness and respect and not be allowed to run riot.

That maybe acceptable to their parents in their own home, but wont necessarily be the case when they're not.

Adgm clearly regrets referring to the children as brats and it's not their fault that they're not being taught how to behave appropriately. The brat in this situation seems to be the s.i.l.

I understand that because your D knows your dogs she trust them Adgm, but being chased and jumped on is behaviour that could provoke a reaction, regardless of how gentle a dog is.

People need to read posts properly before jumping in.

Well - I think people did read your post properly. You did not say - "I am very angry with my SIL that he did not follow the steps I had taken to keep the children safe; perhaps I should have made the rules clearer."

You talked about needing to discipline the grandchildren; about them being brats; about them disrespecting your dogs; about them being allowed to run riot.

WE all responded accordingly.

The only advice I will add is be careful how you start the conversation to avoid any falling out best wishes.

Exactly this - thank you! People need to read posts properly before jumping in. Because my daughter knows the dogs so well she knows they would never do anything without provocation. However watching my sil allow the boys to chase and jump on the dogs was just terrifying for me and he didn’t seem to be able to control the boys to make them stop. Thank you

Hello Adgm. It appears from your posts that it's your s.i.l. whose the problem here, and possibly your D too if she says nothing when he's letting the children into a room where you've put your dogs, and does nothing when the children are chasing them around the garden etc.

I think Redhead's right that your s.i.l. is provoking this situation to wind you up and if he is, he needs to grow up and take his parental responsibilities seriously.

Children need to be taught as early as possible to treat animals with kindness and this doesn't seem to be the case with your GC.

This is your home and for me it has nothing to do with you prioritising your dogs over your GC. You took steps to keep both animals and children safe and this was undermined by your s.i.l.'s juvenile behaviour, which doesn't appear to have been challenged by your D.

A conversation needs to take place before the next visit in which as NotSpaghetti's posted includes you telling them how stressful and anxious you were, trying to keep the children and your dogs safe.

Before the next visit, tell them what arrangements will have been made for example, which room the dogs will be in which the children are not allowed to access. When the dogs are in the garden if the children wont stop chasing them, the children will have to stay indoors. If they pull their fur, ears, tail etc they are to be told firmly to stop.

Of course you love your GC but you love your dogs too and learning how to treat animals with respect and kindness is something all children need to be taught, whether there are pets at home and/or at grandma's or not.

You are irritated because you try to keep the dogs separate to avoid problems. Some how the children are left to chase the dogs when the opportunity arises. It sounds like the sil is provoking the situation to wind you up there needs to be a conversation with him and your daughter.

Adgm

Yes my ‘common sense’ told me this but my sil saw no problem with letting the boys into their locked room and chase them around the garden. I just wanted thé visit to go well and didn’t want to have to be strict but I was so worried

I would have been worried too if I'd arranged separate spaces for the children and dogs and then the children's father had been so reckless. I think the "out of control" people here were the children's parents!

It may have been your son-in-law who was letting out the dogs/letting in the boys but why wasn't your daughter also anxious about this stupid behaviour? She should have put a stop to it even if he "thought it was fun" and you couldn't stop it.

I can see your predicament and think perhaps some comments above haven't fully understood that you have already taken steps to keep your pets and grandchildren apart.

I'd say that any future visit you should do as others say and insist that the animals and children are kept apart and that the parents police this.
I would have a heart-to-heart with your daughter ans stress how anxious you were for both your grandchildren and your dogs.
Good luck.

It seems to me that the sil is the brat who needs to be disciplined.

Well Adgm I still don’t think you get it
The dogs are your responsibility
The children are the parents responsibility
If you feel the son in law is being silly or irresponsible you tell HIM not the grandchildren that the dogs are not to be let outside and put the dogs in another room with door shut tight

Probably best to have the dogs away for a week while the children are with you, as it appears they don’t mix The children haven’t been brought up with dogs and don’t know how to behave around them, and the parents (neither of them) seem able to teach them, so best to remove the temptation for everyone’s sake.
You can’t be on both sides the dogs and the boys you need to concentrate on one or the other for this very short period of a week
Boys of 2 and 4, in a strange settings will be all over the place excited and probably a lot more of a handful than when there are in their routine at home.
They are not brats they don’t need you to discipline them they need temptation out of their way put your best glass vases out of reach when toddlers are arriving…. do the same with your dogs

Whoever is in the right or wrong, no matter that you consider your dogs to be gentle and harmless, the fact is that these children, your grandchildren, were put in danger.
I don’t think you should consider another visit until you have taken some practical steps to keep your dogs completely away from the children.
It’s a totally different scenario from the wood burner, it’s not going to leap up and burn them is it?

Your grandsons are very little and it is up to the adults to keep them safe.
You also mention log burners and roads.
We have a log burner but would never have it burning when our little grandsons are here.
You also mention a busy road, you can't rely on teaching a 2 & 4 year old not to go on the road - you have to ensure they can't go anywhere near the road.
Same applies to dogs - keep dogs and children separate.
By all means start teaching them about the dangers, but don't expose them to those dangers, they are just too little.

A conversation explaining that you don't want your dog to snap at the children shouldn't be a problem, surely

I know / and I adore them I just got in a pickle of standing up to my sil and tell him to be careful around the dogs. I didn’t let them near the grandsons but he thought nothing of letting the boys near them 😳

Your daughter and son in law, might be thinking right now "why is she calling our children brats and googling how to discipline them?"

They cpuld be feeling like you don't like your grandchildren. You really need to fix that ASAP and communicate your boundaries with your dogs for the future.

If they can't respect them they can't stay. Or the dogs and the children are in a dangerous situation

Yes this!