Hoarding and filthy house

I don’t want to go down the ‘it sounds to me’ road, which happens very often on threads, based on limited information, but see that * Tenacious* used to go once a week to clean, but seems to have stopped doing so. Was that her decision or theirs? Very often people have very different ideas of what constitutes ‘a tip’. Regardless of that, until help is asked for, I’d be doing nothing, as it’s up to them how to live.
Also, having worked with families for many years, I think you’d be surprised at how bad conditions have to be before Social Services are ‘concerned’, and I don’t think lack of organisation or of nutritious home-cooked meals would count.

The PIP could be used for a cleaner if the house is sorted out first. And perhaps some storage - wardrobes and chests of drawers - for all these piles of clothes, a linen bin for those awaiting washing and a washing basket for those washed and awaiting ironing/putting away.

Elrel

biglouis Thank you for the USA scale. I am slightly relieved that I seem to be no more cluttered than 2 with the living room approaching 3. It’s a long story going back to March when I had new curtains and carpets. The carpet fitting was an unpleasant experience and I have not managed to get straight since. Time to face up to it I guess!

I’ve had to select 1 for every room, as I don’t have ‘stuff’ on the floor anywhere! My surfaces are all clear ( we won’t talk about cupboards and drawers!)

Germanshepherdsmum

Has she consulted her doctor? She sounds to me as though she is depressed and in need of treatment.

I’m afraid your granddaughter is at risk. She can’t play outside, is living in a dirty house and will be unable to form friendships with other children because they won’t be allowed to go to her home.

I too think she needs to see a GP.

Thanks biglouis, interesting.

The first thing is for your DD to want to clear up and clean, tenacious.
Until she decides it's not healthy for any of them to live like that, nothing will get better.

Your SIL seems to have given up. Is your DGD well cared for, bathed and fed?
Was your DD like this when she lived at home or is she depressed? Is it PND and she just can't cope, doesn't know where to start? Compulsive shopping could be another symptom.

Perhaps you could talk to your SIL about the best way to start, but you can't help unless they want you to.

I work in child services and yes this could possibly be seen as neglect
Living in an enviroment like this can have a severe detrimental effect on the health and well being of children
Your DIL needs help

If nothing changes, nothing changes.

It can become a vicious cycle - this mess depresses me, but I have no motivation to do anything about it. This place depresses me, but I am too depressed to do anything about it.

I wonder if she maybe needs to talk to someone. Not necessarily a doctor as they may just hand out pills to mask the source of the issue. Unless she talks about how she is feeling or says there is an issue then there isnt one.

I have a good friend/ neighbour like this. I could not do it but she seems very happy and healthy and raised 2 boys who are now in great jobs. I don’t go to her house a lot, we go out to films/ meals etc and would never go to her loo and my son when a teenager wd wash his glass before using, she is not phased at all by saying she never does housework . It just seems to be her lifestyle.

There are issues here and you certainly are NOT being critical as one person has posted. Cat and rabbit faeces are a definite health hazard, as are rats. It sounds like a minefield for you, so why not tell social services? Hoarding is a very deep-seated psychological problem, not easy to treat. I understand you may be stymied by worry about whether social services might take away your granddaughter. Maybe try to get more information as to possible outcomes? I really feel for you - good luck!

The daughter is on pip for a reason. Tagging someone I’ll as lazy isn’t helpful

I think there are a few issues here...if your daughter is on PIP, it will either be for physical or mental health reasons and it's usually paid because someone needs assistance / support with daily living...however you say she does do some things, are any of those activities with support?
That could be the reason behind the cleaning...however why can't your SIL clean? I appreciate you say he works full time but a lot of people do and still clean!
Have you spoken with them, asked if you can help?

Another poster is correct - a house in that state would be enough for child services to step in.....

Would / could your SIL family help in any way?

You're whole post is judgemental If I was your family you wouldn't get over my doorstep to judge!!

I cannot agree with those who think OP should do and say nothing.

Dirty cat litter and rabbit droppings all over the place might well constitute health hazards, as might a bathroom that is never cleaned and a kitchen that is dirty.

There is a great difference between living in an untidy house and a dirty one, after all.

It sounds to me as if OP's daughter might be depressed, so encouraging her to go to her doctor is a place to start, so is a kind but honest talk between mother and daughter about the conditions of daugher's house and whether it is kind, healthy or right to bring a child up in such a mess.

It sounds fine that the granddaughter is invited to children's parties, but that will likely soon stop when other children's parents realise that their children are never invited in return.

The health hazard of cat and rabbit droppings would concern me if your gd is poorly with tummy upsets then I would be tempted to address it

What is the reason for your daughter's PPI? She only gets it because she has a long term condition for which she needs help. The situation in her house demonstrates that she needs help.

It is difficult for you to understand what kind of help. I would look at Stacey Solomons sort your life out on TV and read the book - Sort Your Life Out (Hardback)
An indispensable volume for everyone looking to transform their home into a haven of order and calm, Sort Your Life Out dispenses wonderful practicable advice for decluttering, sorting and systemising your living space.

Decluttering and systematizing is a skill your daughter may not have. Also she may have a disability that out of sight is out of mind which means she forgets she has something if she cannot see it.

I would suggest that everything needs to be visible and if put in a box it should be see though and labeled.

Why don't you offer to help out in the kitchen? this is used every day and needs to be kept clean. It is a complex area of management. In the programmes I have suggested you watch Dilly Carter shows you how to orgainse visible storage in many different kitchens. Perhaps you can ask your daughter to watch the programmes with her and listen very carefully to what she says. If you offer to be the Dilly Carter ask her what she would like you to achieve. If the kitchen is too complex you might be able to assist with the laundry. Each person has their own laundry bag and when an item is washed and dried it goes into a basket with their name on for them to return to their room.

You will also realize that one of the problems is that there is not enough storage space and surfaces in the right place but that is another problem.

I have a declutterer once a month for 3 hours to help me!

All the best for you and your daughter

Tenaciousd I do so sympathise with your feelings of helplessness and worry for your granddaughter. It is so hard to stand back, but honestly there is nothing you can do until your daughter and son-in-law are ready to act. My daughter-in-law is a hoarder, livingroom rates a 6 on that USA scale and I won't tell you about the bedrooms, of which there are four. My son is distressed and stressed as if he touches anything that belongs to her she goes berserk. When they married and moved into this lovely large house it took less than three weeks for it to be well beyond clutter. She brought to it nine cats and two dogs, all never going out, kept indoors. She has a highly paid and responsible job which she enjoys, but goes into the office only one day a week, working the rest from home. No-one is welcome to visit. My son has retreated to one bedroom which has become a bed-sit. as whenever he tries to do anything to clear/clean she becomes very aggressive. I try to keep out of it, and let him rant when he visits me. The atmosphere is toxic, the house a bio hazard. I fear the marriage wont last. I so wish she would accept help as she is beautiful, talented and otherwise all one could wish for in a daughter in law. No children.

I have already suggested that the PIP could pay for a cleaner if the mess and dirt is sorted out first. I s the money instead being spent on all these parcels of more stuff which keep arriving? That’s not what it’s meant for.

I worked as a clinician in Mental Health working with seriously ill living in the community.
It's difficult to describe what some of the flats were like..dog excrement on the stairs, bags of rubbish with maggots on the landing etc.
If someone declines or does not think they need help, then it's very difficult to force it on them. Obviously dangers to health will lead to intervention from various authorities.
Are your daughter and family suffering physically, or mentally? It's a fine line to tread if everything is ticking along, even if you disapprove of their living standards.
It is possible the first call will come from neighbours about outside rubbish..

I have experience of caring for someone who lived in similarly extremely unsanitary conditions and the problem was that he had become depressed and didn’t feel he could ever get on top of things. (There were health issues too.)

After a lot of discussion he agreed to let me ‘sort things out’ and, to cut a long story short, we used his PIP money to get everything cleared, cleaned and decorated - and now a cleaner goes in once a week (paid for from his PIP) and this chap is the happiest he’s ever been.

I’m not recommending you do the same, but is it possible that if you can help with one huge clear out your daughter might feel able to keep on top of things thereafter? This will only be of benefit if she and your son-in-law really want help.

Its mostly mental health related ,ive known 3 people with the condition, a waste of time to even mention a tidy up,i found if i pushed too hard it made them often angry and they hoarded more.Only when they want to change........

grannyactivist

I have experience of caring for someone who lived in similarly extremely unsanitary conditions and the problem was that he had become depressed and didn’t feel he could ever get on top of things. (There were health issues too.)

After a lot of discussion he agreed to let me ‘sort things out’ and, to cut a long story short, we used his PIP money to get everything cleared, cleaned and decorated - and now a cleaner goes in once a week (paid for from his PIP) and this chap is the happiest he’s ever been.

I’m not recommending you do the same, but is it possible that if you can help with one huge clear out your daughter might feel able to keep on top of things thereafter? This will only be of benefit if she and your son-in-law really want help.

Thank you. I have helped with cleaning, trips to the tip, have offered extended help (I live an hour away and have an elderly relative to care for also). I don't see what else I can do until they are ready to reach out. Maybe they never will.
The original purpose of my post was to see whether anyone was in a similar position who might have been able to share advice.

You should maybe speak to someone, perhaps your own GP practice, as they should be able to point you in the right direction. You don't have to say who it is at this stage, but sounds like they do need help.

Have you sought to arrange a cleaner paid for by the PIP?

Tenaciousd.
I’d say you can’t change them, only let them know you are busy with elderly relative but you have granddaughter as a priority too so if they need help keeping on top of things you want to help. In which case you are going to just say so if you see something now and again. Hopefully opening the way to speak freely now and again.

Germanshepherdsmum

Have you sought to arrange a cleaner paid for by the PIP?

I have heard indirectly that one of her friends is now her 'carer' and is meant to be cleaning...