Empty Nest Syndrome

Janerowena - I can identify with your feelings so much.
Bi-polar is difficult to live with, but it does improve with age, apparently - if that is any comfort. I have a bi-polar friend who is much more stable now and able to lead a fulfilling life. But any mental health problem can be extremely hard for the family concerned. I've been on both sides - as a carer and now a sufferer.
It has been a long, difficult journey for us as a family, and it's not over yet. It's further complicated because I cope less well now when life is easier than I did when it wasn't! My mind is really letting me down badly right now.

Our older DD is, as I said before, single - and she would love a relationship and a family before it's too late (she's 33 soon). She is loving, caring and thoughtful, and I am so hoping someone realises just how lovely she is, soon. My anxiety was further intensified recently at the news that the daughter of a friend of mine, also in her 30s, has now found a lovely new relationship - and to my shame, far from feeling happy for her, I feel awful - I am struggling to feel anything positive. That doesn't make any sense at all and believe me, I am deeply ashamed of feeling like that. My friend's daughter deserves to have a good life as much as anyone, but my emotions seem to feel otherwise - feeling envy is far from pleasant.
I guess many of us have painful feelings, but I've yet to find anyone who felt remotely as I do.

There is plenty of time for your son to find someone to love and who loves him - don't give up hoping. XXX

I'm sorry you are so low, I have seen that in several posts around the board, but when you think how much time over so many years lots of people have spent worrying and caring and feeling bad it's surprising that anyone doesn't have depression in some form or other. I get SAD and so does DS. which is another thing I shall have to remind him about every year as that seems to get worse with age. It's interesting that you say that bi-polar improves with age, that might cheer my co-grandma up.

As for the envy - at least you know you are being a bit unreasonable, some people never seem to recognise that. It's the maternal thing isn't it - Look at my child! They are wonderful! So why is yours doing better than mine? They must be cheating!' or something along those lines. DBH sees it all the time, as a teacher. and we have learnt to laugh at ourselves as we have thought it ourselves at times over the years, when a part in a play goes to someone else, someone else picked to play a solo in a concert and so on.

I had a rare phone conversation today with DS. As in, it was a conversation rather than just answering questions from me. That cheered me up a lot, sometimes it's lovely to hear his voice but as he doesn't make small talk it's a bit like having a small starter, then having the main meal put in front of you and then someone whipping it away again before you can taste it. The stupid boy forgot to take his painkillers, I knew he would.

I can see why you're so worried now, jane . On the subject of depression there is a lot of talk about it on my racing forums as a lady well known to the racing world has taken her own life. It has opened up a lot of discussion amongst people, which can only be a good thing [and these are male dominated forums where people are opening up and talking about family membersthat have suffered].

That's awful, Tegan - poor lady! Did anyone else have any idea that she was depressed?

Jane - glad you had a good convo with DS. How is he doing? Is he at Cambridge? You mentioned Cambridge and I wondered which college - I used to go to Homerton (when it was a teacher training college though).

And yes, the envy thing is something I struggle with a lot. It used to be feeling envious that other family members had babies with no health problems, whilst we were hit as if with a thunderbolt at DD2's birth - a rare syndrome no one had heard of, undiagnosed until last year. It morphed into feeling envious that other babies were reaching milestones at the 'correct' time whereas our little one was doing her own thing in her own time, with health professionals tutting at her poor weight gain and failure to thrive, diagnosing everything from microcephaly (untrue) to cerebral palsy (also false) and low intelligence (ditto)....In the end I decided she was just herself, a unique and wonderful little girl and I'd have to learn to weather the comparisons and the stares.
Aspergers can be a tricky condition to live with - my nephew has it and I also have a niece with severe autism. My nephew is very bright so he does learn some social skills by observing what other people do, though he has problems with empathy and can appear to be very tactless. I think any parent with a child who has special needs probably finds it harder NOT to worry, especially as they grow up and independence beckons. How long has your son been at university?

He has only just started, last October, so it's all new to us. He is 18. He is studying music, which is mostly based at west road, but he is all over the place as many courses are shared between not only the colleges but also the two universities, as Anglia Ruskin, who bought quite a few of Cambridges old college buildings, has wonderful facilities, and he wants to do composing for film or gaming. It's rather nice, he now has friends from both unis and today he is off to someone's flat for a jamming session - not something he has ever done before! Many of the lecturers seem to flit between the two, not something that would have happened in the past, I think. With the points system you can accumulate points towards your degree from all over the place.

I asked him about friends and he said that it seems to him that he is fine as long as everything stays relatively superficial, it's when people see him at 'home' that they start to realise that he is a bit different. So he keeps it light and joins lots of clubs and casually asks if anyone is going out that night, sort of in general, if he feels like socialising.

I didn't know he had asperger's until he was 13. I do remember being told by his tutor at his choir school when he was 10 that he was considered rather rude because he never smiled at his teachers and barely acknowledged them if he passed them when crossing the cathedral close. I explained to him why he should smile, and he always remembered to do so after that but it was a while before he stopped doing a sort of grimace, and it became more natural. It reminded me that it used to upset DBH when as a baby, he would smile at me but at no-one else. We worked out that he only ever smiled at people who he knew extremely well, and trusted. So it came naturally, rather than socially. Manners generally were something that had to be taught and explained long before he was diagnosed. He would never think to hold doors open for people, and his school was very hot on manners. His logic was that many of the female staff were bigger and stronger than him, and often weren't carrying as much. Logical but not gentlemanly. Getiing him to step aside for people on pavements was my first task, I reckon he now has manners that are far better than those of most teens. If anything he smiles too much!

It sounds as if he is coping very well, Janerowena, and he sounds a credit to you. You should feel very proud of yourself and of him - I hope you are, though I understand your underlying anxiety for him. I still feel that for both of mine. I guess it goes with the job.

I was wondering what happened to Dogs4me, maybe she is still around but under a different name, maybe she is happy now?

Ds is currently at home, I hadn't seen him for two months. He came back by National Express for Father's Day (which is more than he did for Mother's day!) and it is lovely to have him back, even though for only a few days. Unfortunately I do still miss him horribly all over again every time he goes back, I get very down and have to hit the St.John's Wort. I think I just miss being needed, as well as missing the good company of a person who thinks the same way as I do in many ways - and we must all know how hard it is to find people like that.

He is appalling at contacting us, I have to make all the running, but Facebook is a huge comfort s I can see when he was last on, so know that he is still alive. I phone him once a week, sometimes h talks for ages, sometimes just grunts, but as soon as he does get home he relaxes and rests and I know he really appreciates being able to slow down and be looked after for a while. This time he was due to go back on Monday, but has extended it to Wednesday, then I shan't see him for another month at least because he is going away with Cambridge OTC. Every time he comes back I discover a whole new raft of things he has got up to, and little ways in which he makes money. It's humbling to realise that he copes far better than I ever thought he would be capable of, despite his appalling memory. His grades are good too!

But Oh how I wish this ENS would just disappear.

I have some residue of empty nest syndrome left even after 12 years and I think I always will. The funny thing is I really really don't want any of my children back. I always wanted to be a mother. I never really wanted to be anything else. I think it's the being needed and having real purpose is what I miss most. I have a friend ( honest!) and we often discuss this topic. We think it's why we have put on so much weight. 1) because we are no longer running around after children.2) we eat to fill an emotional void. We both have grandchildren, work, husbands, hobbies, other friends, but it's not the same as having a family at home. We know it's a fact of life and as my husband keeps telling me it's our success( we wanted well,happy,independent adult children) but we miss being 'mummy's'. It was fab while it lasted

I still have ENS a bit even though my late eldest daughter would have been 40 next year and youngest is 36, left home ten or more years ago and has two of her own. It's weird, because I see them most days but wouldn't want her living at home again, as much as I love her. I think the ENS is more about wanting to put the clock back to when they were my babies and living it all again.

Yes; I think we were so tired all the time when we were young mums we probably didn't appreciate it. I've always said that if I could go back in time for one day it would be to spend a day with my children when they were little. I had my little grandson here yesterday and I got a load of my sons old toys out for him to play with; as we sat there surrounded by toys I pointed out to the S.O. that that was how it had been when my kids were little; toys everywhere with very little housework being done [and wouldn't have had it any other way].

Yes, I agree, those were probably the happiest times of my life too. I would love to be able to cuddle my children on my lap again, have them snuggle up to me. It's a wonderful feeling and I don't feel quite the same with my GCs even though I love them very much - probably just as well. I miss DD dreadfully but would hate to share a house with her again - she did come back home once and we rowed quite a bit. DS and I never argue which is perhaps why I miss him more. They do still need me, DD often comes to me with problems, but I miss everyday family life. DBH is very happy with his own company and has loads of hobbies and often isn't around, although I have friends it really isn't the same. It's taken this to make me realise why some of my friends are so bound up in clubs and charitable works. Adversely, it's presumably why so many men become depressed if they lose their jobs or if they haven't prepared for retirement.

My ex has an incredible memory and can remember all sorts of events but I can only remember certain things; my daughter making a dolls tea party in the kitchen one day with her teddy bears and my son running back into the house to give me a kiss the day that his dad took him to Disneyland [we were never a kissy family so it meant a lot to me]. For some reason we had some spare money that year and my daughter and I decided that her brother should go to Disneyland while he was still young enough to enjoy it to make up for the money we spent providing her with pony [which we couldn't really afford]. It still seems strange that he went to far away with his dad and I wasn't with them, even though he's travelled all over the world since.

I understand that, you always feel like the main carer, it's hard to let go. DBH used to take DS to London every year to listen to a couple of days of the Proms, I always felt slightly irked even though I didn't particularly want to go!

I took him back to the bus station today and was utterly miserable as the coach drove away. You know you're being daft but can do nothing about it. I found this just now.

www.wikihow.com/Recover-From-Empty-Nest-Syndrome

I've done pretty much everything it suggests, but was mostly cheered up by the thought that it could take 18 months to two years on average before it starts to feel better. So at least I know I'm not alone, because today was tougher than the last time for some reason. Maybe he just wasn't here long enough for me to get fed up with all the extra cooking!

jane I think it will get easier for you if he meets somebody and they become a couple. Some of the responsibility will lift.My DD2 feels extra protective of our DGS1 because of his autism.

It'd be far far worse if he was stuck at home and couldn't go to uni. Although that doesn't actually make it any easier [it should; but it doesn't ].

Well, you get torn, don't you. You want them to have as normal a life as possible, and he loves his Uni life far more than he did his school life. I keep on hoping that a nice bossy well-organised girl will come along, but he doesn't even notice the signs when a girl likes him. He is a very high-functioning aspergic, with a great sense of humour. But he cannot tell whether people like him, has an appalling short-term memory (so would never remember their birthday) and can be rather blunt and too truthful on occasion which is fortunately tempered by good manners! He says that he doesn't think that he wants a girlfriend until he can afford to take her out properly. There's a girl on his course that I think he likes. When I see her pop up on facebook I practically have to sit on my hands to stop myself sending her a message asking her out on his behalf! I hadn't really thought about the sharing of the worry aspect, I think you have a point there.

Only just seen this thread and yes, I definitely have ENS! Though like Kiora I wouldn't actually want them back. I am happy for them that they have lives outside and have moved away. It's what they both wanted and what we wanted for them. But I do miss them terribly. We see DD2 more often because of DGD, but after each meeting I feel anxious and sad, wondering when we will see them again (and I try to keep that to myself!). We don't see DD1 that often as she lives in Norwich and we're in Saf Lunnun, but every time she comes down or we go to stay with her, it's always a wrench to say goodbye.
I loved being a mother. We always will be mothers but it's the loss of important role which is difficult to bear, even though the void is filled with other things. It still feels as if I'm filling time, but then I struggle with depression and anxiety so I'm not sure which came first.
The house feels very empty without them in it, and while I used to yearn for my own time and company at times when they were smaller, now I hate being by myself for too long! There's no pleasing some people, is there?

janerowena - there's a lot to be said for arranged marriages

Although my two daughters are well into their forties and left home over thirty years ago, I am still waiting for the nest to feel empty.

One GS has lived with us for the past 9 years, other GC visit regularly, I see one daughter (who lives nearbyt) a lot and the other (who lives in Manchester) visits and e-mails.

I've got quite a nice balance now. Time to myself in the week and plenty of company at the weekend.

I get to know all the family news (a bit like a soap opera sometimes) as soon as it happens.

I used to go on mumsnet fairly regularly, because of ENS, and found that quite a few of the other sufferers who were on the thread as long as I was also had children with slight problems. Anorexia, ADHD, physical disabilities, dyslexics. We think that most of our apparently stronger and longer-lasting ENS suffering is caused by worry about how our slightly different children will cope as adults. Mine is due back today, he has been travelling around for the past two weeks, and I am really looking forward to seeing him. Not looking forward to the extra work and shopping bill, though! I think I need to concentrate on the negatives more, but I too loved being a mother.

I also miss the company. DBH is out from very early until quite late, then is so tired that I often only see him for an hour a day during term-time. During holidays he is always out singing somewhere or competing (athlete) or chasing butterflies. DS is very good company and is happy to see films with me and do things that DBH doesn't always want to. I really miss that. Going off to the woods elderberry and blackberry picking, that sort of thing. We went to the woods to pick elderflowers to make champagne the last time he was here, he was looking around and seeing it with fresh eyes, as if he might never see it again. I know he's doing it, because I look at him the same way.

janerowena Like you, I had a child with problems - maybe that does make ENS worse. Hadn't thought of that. A large amount of time during DD2's childhood and adolescence was spent worrying about whether she would ever be able to be independent, as her health probs were pretty severe. And we nearly lost her to suicide attempts in her late teens/early twenties. Thankfully she's come through it all and more, but it sure has left its mark!

How lovely to be able to forage together with DS. How old is he?

He's nineteen. Very intelligent, but has a dreadful short-term memory. Vey slightly aspergic but not that an adult would notice, it was evident to other young teens a few years ago, he found them childish. Now he fits right in. He wouldn't tell us where he was going this past week, the first week was spent with the Cambridge OTC., then he went off grid and got all mysterious. He was being driven around London and Yorkshire all by himself with a lieutenant, being head-hunted to join Army intelligence! He said he didn't fancy it, it sounded too much like a desk job. He could never be a spy, he would forget keys, wallet, phone, passport, false name, and he knows that himself, so he reckons that army intelligence aren't intelligent! Still - fascinating, as you know, to realise what a child who I was sure would never be able to live independently, can get up to.

He came home with a crate of nice beer from a barrack somewhere in the north, he fixed their sound system for them. His father is most impressed.

Bad bad case of ENS this at the moment, Daughter has moved up north with her northener husband (he who knows no other life but sport on TV and computer games) and his largish northern family have taken her over. She's changed so much and hardly calls now - I'm very teary much of the time and only get relief when clobbering golf balls into the distance

I don't know how long ago that was, but the novelty may wear off. DD would love to leave SiL's family and her DF behind, but they can't afford to now. Would you like to live up there? I did for a while, I loved it although my roots and most of my family are back down here.