No jab no job

MissAdventure

I suppose everybody has the right to expose themselves to the amount of risk they see fit, whether they are the person providing the service, or the service user.

Then that raises the issue of who actually has that amount of autonomy in their lives these days; not many, I suppose.

but then if that person has no capacity they cannot decide and generally next of kin and the care provider manager plus a social worker would make a decision based on the service users best interests

I completely get why people feel we cannot force people though. I have had discussions with the care provider before now surrounding discussions about how on earth can you advise staff how they behave outside of work! it is a minefield and alot of these social care staff simply do not get paid enough for the difficult job that they do.

I think anyone working in a job caring for vulnerable people should not be allowed to do that job, if they have a health condition that would put the lives of the vulnerable people they are caring for at risk, that includes not having the COVID, flu ot any other vaccine

And yes, Tangerine, that would include those who cannot have the jab, for any reason. Would you let a care home employ Typhoid Mary, or any other person who was a carrier of a disease that could be fatal work in a care environment? Would you let a paedophile work in a childrens home, on the basis that it was hard wired into him?

Nobody should be allowed to do a job, where they can put vulnerable people at risk, for any reason.

Monica I think the issues re caring work is one aspect but why plumbers ? (For example)

I think comparing paedophiles to those who cant be vaccinated is a good example of why I am concerned about the consequences this might have.

JaneJudge
The place I have worked in today is lived in by someone who is very much able to give or withhold consent.
They are 99 years old, and as I have said, pay 9 or 10 people to ensure that they and their family member are able to stay home. (Family member can't consent, but would certainly put up a fight if approached by someone with a syringe!)

I'm the only person there "officially", as the other people are paid cash, and swap and change their roles frequently.
Sometimes they shop, sometimes care, gardening, handyman...

And they all do other work for other people, too.
I assume they will be given the usual priority for the jab based on their individual risk of covid affecting them, rather than the risk to someone that they unofficially help out. (Or, they may decide against the jab entirely)

Oooohhhhh Eddie Mair is discussing this on LBC and he’s just read out my Tweet. Fame at last - all ten seconds of it ?

I'll bask in your reflected glory.
I've always been a bit of a basker.

Suziewoozie - I agree people who don't have a vaccine can't have some jobs. Providing personal care for instance.

I think I was talking in general terms for things like office work (which I do) or working in a shop for instance.

It would be hard to say to someone who truly cannot be vaccinated that they cannot work anywhere at all.

I take your point M0nica.

I agree that working in certain environments would not be possible for people who truly cannot have the jab but I wouldn't want them to be denied employment completely.

How many people are actually truly unable to have the vaccination? Is it a large number?

What about people who simply don't want it?
Are their rights any less than those who can't have it?
Would that be physically unable, or for deep rooted psychological reasons?
Whose rights, or even "just" wishes should trump other people's?

Yes I think people in risky jobs( for their clients and for themselves) should be made to have the jab. I worked when I was younger in a social services environment where I was at risk . I had to regularly arrange to have a Hepatitis B injection. If I didn’t ( and I could choose not to) it meant I gave up my job. I didn’t have a problem with having the injection and I also had to remember to go back for two boosters at precisely timed intervals. I had a vaccination card to prove I was up to date.

It’s going to be left upto employers isn’t it? There are good and bad employers, employers who ignore health and safety in general , employees who just want to make a quick buck. How would you ever really know that Fred’s Homes Electrics had really only employed vaccinated electricians? Because he said so?

I agree with your post Galaxy and I'm also unsure about this.

Would there need to be changes made in employment law? Could refusing to employ someone who hasn't been vaccinated be regarded as discrimination?

I've had countless hepatitis jabs over the years, and never developed enough antibodies to say "it worked".

When it came to the point of a liver biopsy being suggested, it was given up as a bad job, and marked on my work record.

I have worked in a range of care positions, some suggested you should have a hepatitis injection for your own protection, none insisted and many were quite surprised when I mentioned it

It's never been a problem for me in terms of work.
I was told to take extra care of myself when in contact with body fluids.

I'll do a lot for my job, but parting with a piece of my liver is a bridge too far!

Article 6 Universal Declaration on Bioethics and Human Rights:

Any preventive, diagnostic and therapeutic medical intervention is only to be carried out with the prior, free and informed consent of the person concerned, based on adequate information. The consent should, where appropriate, be express and may be withdrawn by the person concerned at any time and for any reason without disadvantage or prejudice.

It seems to me that preventing someone from working unless they have had a particular medical intervention goes against the spirit of this.

In addition, BMA guidance states:

There is currently no exception to the law that will allow an employer to force their employees or workers to get vaccinated, as ultimately individual consent is still required.

I have said before and will say again, be very very careful what you wish for, forcing someone to undergo any medical procedure by any means at all is a very slippery slope. We either value our individual freedoms or we don’t, in which case we can choose to have a society where individuals can be compelled to undergo any kind or number of medical procedures for any reason dictated by the state.

Yes you expressed it much more clearly than I did night owl.

MissAdventure

It's never been a problem for me in terms of work.
I was told to take extra care of myself when in contact with body fluids.

I'll do a lot for my job, but parting with a piece of my liver is a bridge too far!

Gosh. I don’t blame you MissAdventure

It's such an interesting subject (not my liver!)

There are so many angles to consider.
The basic fact is that you can't force a person to be vaccinated, though, provided they are making an informed choice.
It may be the totally wrong decision, but it's theirs to make.

The Pimlico Plumber owner jumped on the no vaccine no job bandwagon before the role out of vaccines in December. He will do anything for publicity for both him and his company.

I am another one who is in two minds over this, if I go to certain countries I have to prove that I have had certain vaccines, however it’s my choice to travel.

As far as I am aware NHS workers / carers are not forced to have the flu vaccine each year (happy to be corrected) Whereas our Armed Forces have to have whatever vaccines they are told to have.

I think it comes down to which outweighs the other - individual human rights or the collective right of the population?

My dd manages a care home. She told the staff if they refused vaccination they would be put on unpaid leave. She had one agency carer who went in to work and gave Covid to a patient. The patient was isolated and the agency told never to send that particular carer.

Lovetopaint037

My dd manages a care home. She told the staff if they refused vaccination they would be put on unpaid leave. She had one agency carer who went in to work and gave Covid to a patient. The patient was isolated and the agency told never to send that particular carer.

That’s illegal surely ?

I know Im being a bit flippant here but isnt this a bit like the dogs?

.Without an up to date vaccination passport its almost impossible to get your dog into a training classes , boarding kennels , hydrotherapy or indoor pool and now even groomers are asking for vaccination books so that they dont run the risk of having an unvaccinated dog passing anything on to other 'clients'..

Is this the shape of things to come for us as well? Will we have to show this health passport to be accepted?
Also if its ok for firms/holiday resorts /airlines and pubs to ask for this medical information from you what else might they demand in the future?