No jab no job

MissAdventure, I'd be really quite cross about all that mixing within that household

grandmajet, I'm all in favour of it. After all, anyone working as a dental nurse has to be vaccinated against hepatitis - and test immune too.

Galaxy sorry I didn’t acknowledge your earlier post.

Lovetopaint - like suziewoozie I wonder whether your DD’s action was legal? I’m not getting at her (or you) just wondering about the legal situation. I guess at some point this might all be tested in the courts.

Yes I managed a childrens home for the local authority and I dont know that I would have been allowed to do that. The HR department would have been on the phone I suspect.

JaneJudge

MissAdventure, I'd be really quite cross about all that mixing within that household

I suppose the alternative is both people being put into a care home, and I wouldn't fancy their chances of surviving it.

It is a minefield of issues.

I could remove myself from the risk, I suppose, except I am on a zero hours contract, so I suppose then I could raise the issue of poorer people having less choice of prioritising themselves.
I do zero hours because of a lack of childcare for 13 year old children...
Another issue.
I work because I have been made to by the dwp.
Another issue?

Suziewoozie, Tangerine, Yes, the last sentence in my post was bit opaque, but as the whole of the rest of the post referred specifically to people in caring roles, I assumed it would be read in that context.

I’m still of the opinion you can’t impose it on people. No one at the moment is certain of the efficacy as far as transmission is concerned, although I suppose if you are less likely to have the virus, you are less likely to spread it. What a very difficult subject.

I agree with the posters who say certain jobs would not be open to non vaccinated people. I had Hep B vaccination when I was working in Social Care and that was 20 years ago.
It's uncharted territory and I can understand why people are concerned,

This is a tricky one. I have come up with one question.
Does someone who hasn’t had the vaccine pose a bigger risk to someone else or are they just at bigger risk themselves.
If all the residents in, for example a care home, have been vaccinated are they at more risk if being cared for by someone who has said no to the vaccine?
If the answer is no then is there a problem?

It doesn't matter who agrees with what, from a legal standpoint.
You cannot make someone be vaccinated or have invasive medical treatment if they refuse.
Provided that is an informed decision.

MissAdventure that is true but do you then have to give them a job?
If they pose a bigger risk to their workmates, people in their care do those people have a right not to be either working close to them to to be cared for by them?

For new employees in an organisation, which is what the question was, the employer can advertise posts with that stipulation, they can make vaccination mandatory, and the employer would then be responsible for policing staff to make sure their vaccination status was kept updated. I think this will ultimately happen for frontline health and social care staff - it would be very difficult to argue such a policy is discriminatory if it is there for the specific reason of protecting vulnerable patients/clients where personal care is provided.

I wonder if legislation may be put in place to say that a particular role is exempt from allowing a choice?

It happens with young females needing personal care, usually.
They can specify that they require only female carers.

What then for carers being expected to care for people who don't want the vaccine?

Besides which, as it stands (for now) the only people at risk of hospitalisation are the unvaccinated.

In principle, I think that it's fair enough to say that if someone has no medical reason not to have the jab but they choose not to, then they lose some of their rights, in order to protect people who are unable to have it for medical reasons.

I feel the same about the MMR. It's more difficult to suggest disadvantaging children, but as someone said upthread, you have to have a vaccination record before you can put your pet in a kennel, so I see no logical reason why that shouldn't apply to schools in the case of MMR, and the workplace in the case of the Covid vaccine.

When my son was born, he was in special care for a while, and one of the doctors had lied about having all her vaccinations and it turned out that she had TB. All the babies who had been under her care had to have tests, X Rays, and take prophylactic medicine.

My son was in SCU because of a difficult birth, but others in there were premature or had other medical issues - the thought of my son being at risk of TB was terrifying, but I can only imagine how the parents of some of the other babies must have felt. I really have a zero tolerance policy for vaccine refuseniks, unless they have a genuine medical reason for exemption.

PamelaJ1

This is a tricky one. I have come up with one question.
Does someone who hasn’t had the vaccine pose a bigger risk to someone else or are they just at bigger risk themselves.
If all the residents in, for example a care home, have been vaccinated are they at more risk if being cared for by someone who has said no to the vaccine?
If the answer is no then is there a problem?

Part of the issue is people have been vaccinated by age so there are lots of people with disabilities in care settings (not necessarily 'care homes') who wont have received a vaccine at all and will not do for some time. I'd have thought the best thing to do would be to vaccinate all the vulnerable residents with disabilities everywhere first if they could receive it but I am too involved to offer an unbiased response.

MissA you are right though, money gives people choices that are not afforded to poorer people

I wouldn't abandon "my" people anyway, but if someone did get covid I can pretty much guess who will be looked at suspiciously (me!)

If someone is already employed, then refuses to be vaccinated and is sacked this is potentially unlawful. However, in reality this means nothing. What would the sacked employee do? The waiting list for Employment Tribunals is incredibly long and unless the worker is in a union, she’d be pitted against an organisation who could afford a solicitor. Completely powerless so in reality employers will be able to do what they want with no redress

There are ways and means of ousting people, by finding their work practice lacking, giving them shifts which are detrimental, by turning a blind eye...
Prevalent in care type settings, I've found.
Most people will resign or accept being moved elsewhere sooner than have it on record that they're a "bad carer".

MissAdventure

There are ways and means of ousting people, by finding their work practice lacking, giving them shifts which are detrimental, by turning a blind eye...
Prevalent in care type settings, I've found.
Most people will resign or accept being moved elsewhere sooner than have it on record that they're a "bad carer".

Yes - completely unequal balance of power. These days though being sacked or resigning has serious implications if needing to claim benefits. It’s just a mess and I hope that more will be done about educating people who are vaccine hesitant in a non judgemental way. We shouldn’t just accept that it serves them right if they are forced out of their job.

In other circumstances I’d agree suziewoozie, but the risk for an employer in not taking action to protect vulnerable clients is probably greater than the risk of sacking an employee who refuses vaccination without a clinical reason. It’s a very tricky area indeed, but for the employee it will certainly polarise their choice about being vaccinated or not.

Doodledog in France all children must have had 11 vaccinations before being accepted into school.

Does a clinical reason override a psychological one?
A religious one?

Yes if it puts a clients life at risk. It’s a stark choice for both employers and employees, it will take legislation I imagine.

nightowl

Galaxy sorry I didn’t acknowledge your earlier post.

Lovetopaint - like suziewoozie I wonder whether your DD’s action was legal? I’m not getting at her (or you) just wondering about the legal situation. I guess at some point this might all be tested in the courts.

Yes but when you have so many people as your personal responsibility and already one of them being isolated because an agency worker worked while positive you will do everything you can to protect them. Fortunately all the staff wanted the vaccination. If push came to shove she would have to relent but she really cares for everyone in the home and would be heartbroken if she didn’t make every effort to protect them.

Is it possible to pinpoint the virus to one person?
It's not a criticism; my brain is a bit frazzled.