Is Gender Critical the new Pro Life?

Personal preferences may be accepted but don't have to be respected

No one is insisting you do so. Giving your chosen pronoun is always optional.
You don’t understand that your own experience is not that of the rest of us, do you? People are told to display a preferred pronoun on emails signatures and Zoom screens. I am in a Zoom meeting now (screen break) and several people have them - if your workplace has signed up to Stonewall’s diversity champions nonsense you have to do it.

I know people who have taken on HR and been told that they (HR) are not keen as they understand the connotations and the impertinence of it, but they tend to be senior staff. Younger, less confident people and those not on permanent contracts are much less willing to speak out (other than to friends and colleagues).

FarNorth

Mollygo

"Hi, I saw you when I came in but I thought 'Oh, he's talking to Jean. I'll speak to him later.'
Cue upset from bearded male friend in a dress.

This genuinely happened to someone I know.

Good example, FN, except I’d think he or she, and it wouldn’t be audible.
If we met up later I’d say, “ Hi, I saw you when I came in, but you were talking to Jean so I thought I’d catch up with you later.”
Like you, in a meeting I’d use the name rather than lie on purpose. If the person looked like a man I’d say he and if the person looked like a woman I’d say she.
If the bearded bloke in men’s clothing criticised me and said he was a woman
I’d be polite and say nothing.

Doodledog

*No one is insisting you do so. Giving your chosen pronoun is always optional.*
You don’t understand that your own experience is not that of the rest of us, do you? People are told to display a preferred pronoun on emails signatures and Zoom screens. I am in a Zoom meeting now (screen break) and several people have them - if your workplace has signed up to Stonewall’s diversity champions nonsense you have to do it.

I know people who have taken on HR and been told that they (HR) are not keen as they understand the connotations and the impertinence of it, but they tend to be senior staff. Younger, less confident people and those not on permanent contracts are much less willing to speak out (other than to friends and colleagues).

I'm sorry that anyone had that experience Doodledog Most of the people I know using chosen prronouns are flexible about it. One of them attached this to an email www.glsen.org/sites/default/files/GLSEN%20Pronouns%20Resource.pdf
It says if people are not comfortable sharing a pronoun to use their names. Perhaps if it was more widely circulated more people would be happier about things.

Perhaps. But as things stand, universities, local authorities and other large employers who are still in the thrall of Stonewall are insisting on it, whatever your personal experience.

This is one of the reasons why people like me get so annoyed. As we have said since what feels like the dawn of time, it is not transpeople themselves that are the issue - it is the way in which the Stonewall agenda is forced on people whether they like it or not, usually to the detriment of women.

Succinctly put Doodledog.
The problem is as trisher said “Most of the people” she knows “using chosen pronouns are flexible about it.”
Even among people she knows, that means that some are not flexible.
The only example I have experience of currently involved bullying by a transchild of children who either didn’t use it or who got it wrong because of the appearance of the said child. That’s not flexible.

As I posted before a director of Stonewall does not give her chosen pronoun, but you disputed that, although a glance at their website shows some do and she doesn't.
It would be good to have some corroborative evidence showing this is the policy most education providers are following. The organisation I linked to provide services to educators and they certainly don't advocate that.

I missed that. Where does anyone say that the CEO of Stonewall gives her chosen pronoun?

trisher, can you see that the way in which you confidently insist that things that may (or may not) apply in your own circumstances are universal phenomena is maddening for those who know otherwise?

The crux of the GCF argument is that women are being swept along by the trans agenda - forced to accept being called 'cervix havers', not allowed to give informed consent on sex-based matters, forced to declare gender pronouns whether we believe in them or not and much more.

To gaslight us by being saying that no, we've got it wrong - nobody is going to insist on anything, is very disrespectful. It's bad enough that we have to live through it in the first place, but the denial of our own experience is the icing on the cake.

I don't know your personal circumstances, but I am still working, albeit spasmodically, and therefore live with the things I describe above. I have young colleagues (the vast majority are younger than me), and they can look ahead to having their careers as hampered by trans issues as those of previous generations of women were by sexism.

Our resistance is not borne of prejudice against transpeople. It is based on a recognition that we are systematically being erased. Women of my generation won't be affected by most of what's happening, but as a feminist (which, to me, means solidarity with other women) I am prepared to fight for their rights.

*As I posted before a director of Stonewall does not give her chosen pronoun, but you disputed that, although a glance at their website shows some do and she doesn't.
It would be good to have some corroborative evidence showing this is the policy most education providers are following. The organisation I linked to provide services to educators and they certainly don't advocate that.*

Oh, for goodness' sake!

Corroborative evidence? How do you suggest I get that? Ask friends to cut and paste their email signatures? Give details of my own workplace and of the ones that employ people I liaise with on a regular basis? I don't think so.

And at the risk of rehashing old ground (^again^) and diverting the thread (^again^) the biog of the women in your link used the pronoun 'she'. Had she objected, she would have had it removed, surely? As (I assume) neither of us has had an email from her, we have no way of knowing if there is a pronoun attached to that, and ditto to her Zoom screen tag.

Also, using 'As I posted before' as a way of suggesting that the rest of the post is fact is an old, but discredited, device. You posted it, but I disputed your conclusions - the least you could do is acknowledge that?

I heard the interview this morning with the person (can I say that?) if anyone could grasp anything she did say as she skated round so many questions. I find it all intimidating, don’t agree with all these genders and watching everything you say for fear of saying the incorrect thing. I will stay clear of the subject and leave it to those interested.

A document from Stonewall insisting everyone must give their pronouns would do.
Everybody uses pronouns but your argument is that Stonewall is insisting people declare them and intimidates or sanctions those who don't do so. I posted evidence that a director did not state her preferred pronoun and you refuse to accept it. But apparently I am supposed to believe your assertions because you make them and because you are apparently still working.
Well here's a surprise when you stop working your professional and personal contacts don't cease. In fact mine are much more varied than they were and most of them are younger than me. They began using chosen pronouns years ago and continue to do so, but I have never seen any of them insist anyone does so or criticise anyone who doesn't do so.
As you cannot or will not post any evidence to the contrary I really cannot take your assertions seriously. I'm sure had I tried to argue my point without any evidence you would have told me I was wrong.

I have tried very hard to be calm and measured in my responses to you, trisher, but I am furious now.

Let's be clear here - are you saying that I'm a liar?

Trans people exist

Women "Nooooooo, I'm melting"

Huh?

Are we really so fragile?

VioletSky

Trans people exist

Women "Nooooooo, I'm melting"

Huh?

Are we really so fragile?

Offensive and ridiculous, also in total contradiction to any posts on this thread.

VioletSky please quote me one post, just the one will do, where anybody has said trans people don't exist. No? Can't do that can you because nobody has denied their existence! We just don't want transwomen given free reign to compromise women's positions and single sex spaces required for safety, modesty, fairness. You know, prisons, hospital wards, refuges, changing rooms, sports, awards and employment. Why do you persist with this maliciously false accusation?

trisha, you seem increasingly unable to debate. Those who disagree with you don’t have a different point of view, a different lived experience, exposure to an equally diverse group of friends/influencers -we are simply wrong, I’ll informed, bigoted and in need of re-education. \
When I was late teens/early 20’s I had what I now look back on as a Russian phase. I read Dostoyevsky, Sholokhov and others. Fantastic literature that also showed me what it’s like to live in a totalitarian state.

That's a bit of a leap

Trans people simply exist, they aren't doing anything to harm woman by just existing

VioletSky

Trans people exist

Women "Nooooooo, I'm melting"

Huh?

Are we really so fragile?

VioletSky, like Rosie51 I’m waiting for you to tell me where anyone on here has said transwomen don’t exist.
I guess I’ll wait a long time, while you search desperately through all 24 pages, or while you realise it isn’t true and try to come up with another ‘witty’ post in the hope we’ll forget this one.

Ah OK, we are just going to run with something I didn't say...

<Ah OK, we are just going to run with something I didn't say..>

Nobody said or alluded to transwomen not existing either.
But your comment <Are we really so fragile?> yes, some women are very fragile indeed. Some women have been raped and assaulted and because of their trauma, they don't want to be anywhere near a male, no matter what he says he is. But, as we can see from the Inclusion Policy of an English Rape Crisis Centre, there is no place for:

- Women with no gender identity who feel unsafe around males
- Women who identify as women who feel unsafe around males
- Natal females who identify as men who feel unsafe around males

What would you say or advise that woman to do VioletSky?

VioletSky

Ah OK, we are just going to run with something I didn't say...

What didn’t you say VioletSky?

I'm baffled by that because apparently trans people aren't wanted in women's safe spaces and now they cannot have their own safe spaces either even though those spaces are available to trans inclusive people too?

Where is any willingness to allow trans people the same rights we already have (even if there are those who resent the fact we have them)?

Iam64

trisha, you seem increasingly unable to debate. Those who disagree with you don’t have a different point of view, a different lived experience, exposure to an equally diverse group of friends/influencers -we are simply wrong, I’ll informed, bigoted and in need of re-education. \
When I was late teens/early 20’s I had what I now look back on as a Russian phase. I read Dostoyevsky, Sholokhov and others. Fantastic literature that also showed me what it’s like to live in a totalitarian state.

Iam64 asking for evidence is none of those things. I and any trans supporter on this and other threads have. many times been asked for supporting evidence, and sometimes when posted this has been criticised because it wasn't recent enough. Now it seems I am in some way imposing a totalitarian state!?
Well I'm not the one insisting I know something but without showing any evidence, or denying the evidence when it is produced by someone else.
If Stonewall is doing the things alleged some evidence should be available.

You've avoided the question VioletSky, what would you say to a woman who had been violently attacked/raped/assaulted and who went to a rape crisis centre but was told that, because she didn't meet any of the criteria below, there was no place for her?

- Women with no gender identity who feel unsafe around males
- Women who identify as women who feel unsafe around males
- Natal females who identify as men who feel unsafe around males