Is Gender Critical the new Pro Life?

trisher you and I don't agree on all subjects but I want you to know that I do respect you and I do appreciate that conversations where we don't agree never become personal, unkind or unfriendly and discussion stays on track.

Also before anyone says it, if grandparents or anyone else in the family gain the automatic right to force visitation in court under UK law, then that's the law and I will accept it.

What I won't accept is those rights automatically being granted to abusive people (because as I have also previously said on these threads, criminals should not have automatic rights that may cause harm to others) and I can only hope that the courts will always get it right.

Thanks VioletSky I appreciate that. I am sorry about your abusive childhood. It's something I have little personal experience of and so I tend not to comment about it. My mother and I had our differences but she was always a caring parent, grandparent and great grandparent. It must be so difficult to have a family where there isn't that support. And using something you said in that context to undermine another post seems to me the lowest of the low. You've done well to reply in such a reasonable way.

trisher thank you

Chewbacca

Of course it's possible to post about more than one thing trisher! No one, as far as I can see, would disagree with that. But something as fundamental as to whether you believe that all sections of society, including gay, trans, ethnic minorities or grandparents etc having "rights" doesn't vary from group to group. But if you said you can't give rights to anyone without taking them away from the other party you'd be admitting that one of those groups would have to move over/accept less than another group to accommodate them. And, as the very point of these discussions is about how some of the trans community are eroding natal women's rights, it's valid that a juxtaposition of 2 statements is questioned.

It's not irrelevant to point out where discrepancies lie.
It also helps other readers with less knowledge understand a bit better.
Harping or debating?
One description is emotionally charged the other is based on an examination of the points, and choice of words the speaker has used.
To move the topic forward to a greater understanding, anomalies have to be exposed.

Funny how some people comment about the possibilities of child abuse in the abstract and as related to trans issues, but when faced with it in reality are quite prepared to use it as a stick to poke someone with.

Thank you trisher. While I take everything on any internet site with a pinch of salt and refuse to be offended by anyone I don't know IRL, I do find the total disconnect between the old guard and the new ironic. Working in education, 95% of the students I work with find the gender critical viewpoint offensive. Trans students that I've taught have inevitably had the support of their peers, regardless of their status (m2f, f2m, non-binary, gender queer). I'm currently doing heavy duty exam marking (upwards of 1000 papers now, god help me) and criticism of the older generation not understanding how modern viewpoints have changed on this issue are even making it into exam essays. Comments I've read in these exam essays have encompassed the terminology 'biased', 'bigoted' and 'discrimination'.

I do find the way the gender critical and anti-trans posters on GN demand answers to their questions unacceptable and there is certainly nothing feminist about it. It's good old patriachal intimidation and domination. Couldn't agree with this more. No one GN member has any more authority on there than any other, as much as some feel they do due to their length of membership. And a discussion forum is there for as much or as little participation as the individual member wishes.

I also find it highly offensive that the gender critical are trying to hijack feminism, as a version that only fits their own definition. Hence the link with 'pro-life' which is really anything but.

As I mentioned to Chewbacca at the beginning of the thread, our POV is irrelevant anyway. We are the outgoing generations. What is coming is not within our control. I really wish that I could be a fly on the wall to watch though! A post sex, post gender society would be a thing to see!

Its seems highly unlikely that would be what you would see. The more progressive countries seem to be beginning to back away from the affirmation model, medics are raising concerns, safeguarding leads are raising concerns and winning their legal actions.
There are many young people speaking out, the detransitioners, the 14 year old girl who took her school to court to ensure access to sex segregated spaces and so on. I believe everyone's viewpoint is important, quite weird to describe the view of a particular demographic as irrelevant.

Oh and you seem to think you hold some authority as you have decided you have the authority to describe a group of peoples beliefs inaccurately.

Galaxy

Its seems highly unlikely that would be what you would see. The more progressive countries seem to be beginning to back away from the affirmation model, medics are raising concerns, safeguarding leads are raising concerns and winning their legal actions.
There are many young people speaking out, the detransitioners, the 14 year old girl who took her school to court to ensure access to sex segregated spaces and so on. I believe everyone's viewpoint is important, quite weird to describe the view of a particular demographic as irrelevant.

If we are going to discuss detransitioning (and there is very little research on the subject) we should look at why people do it. It isn't always because they are happy with their birth gender. It is often the pressures they face in society
The 2015 U.S. Transgender Survey collected responses from individuals who identified as transgender at the time of the survey. 8% of respondents reported having ever detransitioned; 62% of that group were living as a gender other than the one assigned to them at birth at the time of the survey.[44] About 36% reported having detransitioned due to pressure from parent, 33% because it was too difficult, 31% due to discrimination, 29% due to difficulty getting a job, 26% pressure from family members, 18% pressure from a spouse, and 17% due to pressure from an employer.[45]
So actually it's often the bias and condemnation that forces them to change back.
Some people go on to revert to their transgender status

Galaxy

Its seems highly unlikely that would be what you would see. The more progressive countries seem to be beginning to back away from the affirmation model, medics are raising concerns, safeguarding leads are raising concerns and winning their legal actions.
There are many young people speaking out, the detransitioners, the 14 year old girl who took her school to court to ensure access to sex segregated spaces and so on. I believe everyone's viewpoint is important, quite weird to describe the view of a particular demographic as irrelevant.

What I have seen has been in schools in the south and north of the UK. I COULD give you students names, but that would be illegal, obviously. I saw the same thing in China (F2M in my tutor group. I thought he was a boy, because ALL the students referred to him as him. Nope. Bio female.). And in Spain. F2M. I did 121 tutoring with him but all of the school students knew his status and were very supportive when he started having counselling and told his parents. Same in the UK. Troubled M2F in a bottom set class. Had a range of friends. Decided she liked me when I told her I thought her eyebrows were on fleek one day.

I could copy and paste sections of exam answers to show you the comments from 16 year olds about the old, out of date generation and what those children see as 'narrow minded' (one students comment) attitudes in older people. But obviously, again, it's illegal for me to do that.

But Galaxy, I am happy for you to disbelieve me. I honestly DGAF. I work with these young people. I have primary source evidence. And TBH, I'm proud of them for the way they support their peers.

I didnt say I disbelieved you if you read the post, I showed that there are other views amongst young people. I certainly dont want to see your exam papers .
I am afraid there is no research on the current detransitioners as the sudden increase in f to m transition amongst young people is so recent, this is one of the issues that the evil bigoted feminists are raising. Many of those detransitioners are talking about social contagion, realising they were a lesbian, pressures around gender and so on. The professionals are also whistleblowing on homophobic parents.

Well of course, every generation has a range of view points.

But just as in the 1980s, feminism had a dip in popularity/acceptance, the general trend was still towards support for equality. The same thing is happening with the understanding of sex not being totally binary.

That isnt what is happening. There is a debate on the difference between sex and gender. That's what happening. But that's a different thing entirely.

Galaxy

That isnt what is happening. There is a debate on the difference between sex and gender. That's what happening. But that's a different thing entirely.

I appreciate that is how you see it.

Galaxy

Its seems highly unlikely that would be what you would see. The more progressive countries seem to be beginning to back away from the affirmation model, medics are raising concerns, safeguarding leads are raising concerns and winning their legal actions.
There are many young people speaking out, the detransitioners, the 14 year old girl who took her school to court to ensure access to sex segregated spaces and so on. I believe everyone's viewpoint is important, quite weird to describe the view of a particular demographic as irrelevant.

“Quite weird to describe the view of a particular demographic as irrelevant”
Not to you GagaJo evidently but then evidently that whole demographic of which you is one doesn’t support your ideas.
I also have links with young people who both agree and disagree about trans. They are however, adamant that women’s rights should not be overridden. I dare say I could get them to write statements to that effect. You wouldn’t be any more convinced.

You are not you is

As in 20 years time I will probably be dead I can see why younger people would consider the views of my demographic as irrelevant. As the generation passes so does the prejudice, hopefully.

Well that would work if young people retained the same view throughout their life. Obviously they dont. That is particularly true for feminism, many women come to feminism quite late in life (often after having a child) so we will see.

Read through the thread. Remain concerned that simplistic arguments accusing anyone who suggests the huge increase in gender uncertainty needs much more thorough psychological investigation assessment and support, is a bigot. That those of us who challenge simplification of this issue aren’t proper feminists
There is a move amongst professionals to back away from the affirmation model.

If I felt my rights as a woman were being eroded by trans people I'd certainly be fighting against it. I just don't think that.

VioletSky you might feel that if you were carrying a banner in support of lesbians, at a Pride parade, and found yourself being insulted and threatened.

Yes, it happens.

criminals should not have automatic rights that may cause harm to others) and I can only hope that the courts will always get it right.

Male criminals are already being given the opportunity to harm women in prison.
Even more of them will have that right if self-id of sex becomes law, as the Scottish Government is determined it will.

Comments I've read in these exam essays have encompassed the terminology 'biased', 'bigoted' and 'discrimination'.

Have the students advanced any further analysis than these brief comments?

Galaxy: Well that would work if young people retained the same view throughout their life. Obviously they dont. That is particularly true for feminism, many women come to feminism quite late in life (often after having a child) so we will see.
Yes, but the waves of feminism ebb and wane too. It isn't all about personal choice. I remember the 1990s only too well, when feminism was not a strong political movement. I remember being laughed at, at work in 1993 for stating I was a feminist. By other women.

VioletSky: you might feel that if you were carrying a banner in support of lesbians, at a Pride parade, and found yourself being insulted and threatened.
The whole point of a Pride march is that solidarity confers power and LGBTQ people have always been marginalised. The march is a protest. Of course abuse is thrown. But it's usually by the establishment. If this discussion were taking place on GN 20 years ago, all those who are now gender critical would have been gay critical.

But now if you’re lesbian, you can find some LGBTQ people who are shouting at you. Hmm