Latest Dr's strike announced

The G isn’t derided more than the DT? Or DM?
I just think some articles in the G particularly have bordered on creative writing when attacking the government. It’s the word ‘sources’ which gives it away.

The government plan to place the blame for failures in the NHS on junior doctors seems to be working.

Vintagewhine

The government plan to place the blame for failures in the NHS on junior doctors seems to be working.

It's a question of how many people will 'buy' it.

The problems and failures within the NHS have been growing for years and years and, frankly, you can't put all the blame on this current government.

Obviously the strike isn't helping matters. But it is itself a symptom of the wider problems.

Personally, I believe the NHS should be separated from direct government involvement to protect it from political dogma and emotive, headline-grabbing, short-term directives and policies.

Dickens I totally agree with you. we should have a cross party initiative to try to sort out the NHS. TBH I don't think the NHS is capable of providing the cradle to the grave free treatment that was envisioned in 1948, but I'm worried that we will end up with a two tier system that disadvantages the already disadvantaged. I think there are some difficult decisions to be made about how we fund the NHS and what it will provide and this will not prove popular with many tax payers so if it's left to the government (regardless of which party) we won't necessarily get a fair and just system that works.

Again, not a peep from the well paid Amanda Pritchard …

Dickens Agreed on separation of powers so NHS has more autonomy from government but since the NHS has a huge proportion of public expenditure, how could this be possible?
Also both the BMA and the government are equally responsible for the 10th strike over this pay dispute. No side has set out its table with any clarity. The public is not given the opportunity to see the differences between pay demands and pay offers in real figures. Why not?

They still get my full support and all my blame goes to the government.
This is despite having my vascular surgeon and separate cardio thoracic surgeon appointments cancelled and hopefully rescheduled a month and 2 months later.
I've needed to be seen urgently recently and although overworked they were there when needed.

ronib

Dickens Agreed on separation of powers so NHS has more autonomy from government but since the NHS has a huge proportion of public expenditure, how could this be possible?
Also both the BMA and the government are equally responsible for the 10th strike over this pay dispute. No side has set out its table with any clarity. The public is not given the opportunity to see the differences between pay demands and pay offers in real figures. Why not?

I think the blame goes entirely to this govt that has taken advantage of the Doctor's unwillingness to take strike action in the past. The Junior doctors have for years seen their pay and working conditions being eroded whilst their living expenses, exam fees etc have increased. Junior doctors effectively have one employer during their training, they can't shop around so their pay and working conditions should be protected and that hasn't happened. These strikes are a measure of how angry doctors are and I doubt that bullying tactics will work. Just give them a decent settlement and be done with it.

foxie48 what is a decent settlement?
What are the precise numbers, what is the price difference in the amount demanded and the amount offered?

It’s true that during the early years of training, doctors can’t shop around but the moment they are in a position to do so, they are off to other countries. It would seem.

I don't recall people being critical of doctors' pay before the tories inaugurated cuts to public expenditure post 2010.

All that the doctors want is to restore their pay levels to those those uncontroversial levels in place before the tories took an axe to them.

It always surprises me to find so many people who object to others being treated fairly...

I'm all for the doctors getting a pay rise, although I doubt it can be anything like the 35% they're asking. They are not alone in having had their pay diminished over the years, others who are paid by the public purse also suffer. I wonder how much support there'd be for the police and prison officers to go on strike for better pay? I guess we'll never know because for them it's illegal to strike.
I think fairness for all not just the few should be the baseline.

MaizieD. My biggest concern and objection is the most unfair treatment of patients - do you acknowledge that patients have rights too?
A proper analysis of the existing pay offer has yet to be seen.

ronib

*MaizieD*. My biggest concern and objection is the most unfair treatment of patients - do you acknowledge that patients have rights too?
A proper analysis of the existing pay offer has yet to be seen.

That's not the junior doctor's fault, perhaps the govt should lay out what they have offered but this has been going on for a very long time and for most of it the govt has refused to meet with the BMA unless it drops it's strike action. It's also used a test of "affordability" rather than "fairness". I wonder how many of us would continue working for an employer on the basis of what the employer could afford rather than on what our skills and experience merits?
With regard to patient's rights, surely they are entitled to have a medical service which is properly funded and resourced so they get the care they need? You will never have a properly resourced service if staff are underpaid and under valued.

foxie48. I have never worked for a company who could not afford to pay me so I am a bit confused. This country has a capitalist system.
Staff are not undervalued by patients. I believe though that the opposite cannot be said.

ronib

Dickens Agreed on separation of powers so NHS has more autonomy from government but since the NHS has a huge proportion of public expenditure, how could this be possible?
Also both the BMA and the government are equally responsible for the 10th strike over this pay dispute. No side has set out its table with any clarity. The public is not given the opportunity to see the differences between pay demands and pay offers in real figures. Why not?

Agreed on separation of powers so NHS has more autonomy from government but since the NHS has a huge proportion of public expenditure, how could this be possible?

Presumably in the same way the Judiciary is funded?

I think the data / information on the pay demands, the government's offer, etc is available, but I don't know where to find it either.

ronib

*foxie48*. I have never worked for a company who could not afford to pay me so I am a bit confused. This country has a capitalist system.
Staff are not undervalued by patients. I believe though that the opposite cannot be said.

I doubt you would continue to work for a company that paid you what they thought they could afford if it didn't reflect the skills and experience that you had and similar employers were prepared to pay you more.. It's the govt that decides on what the NHS can afford, not a company operating in a capitalist system and clearly what they see as "affordable" does not reflect the skills and experience that junior doctors think they offer to the NHS. eg why are junior doctors less valuable to the NHS in 2023 than they were in 2013? There is a shortage of doctors, doctors are leaving part way through their training to take up jobs in other countries or are not completing their training. The facts speak for themselves. The only reason they have seen their pay effectively decrease very significantly over this period of Conservative goverment is that the govt has decided not to pay them properly and taken advantage of the fact that doctors have been very reluctant to take industrial action.
With regard to how doctors are valued by patients, many of the comments I've seen suggest patients and potential patients do not think they should be paid properly so clearly they don't "value" them

Rosie51

I'm all for the doctors getting a pay rise, although I doubt it can be anything like the 35% they're asking. They are not alone in having had their pay diminished over the years, others who are paid by the public purse also suffer. I wonder how much support there'd be for the police and prison officers to go on strike for better pay? I guess we'll never know because for them it's illegal to strike.
I think fairness for all not just the few should be the baseline.

" starting salary of £36,775 rising to £37,975 at week 30, or £34,820 for our Met Officer Gateway Programme (MOGP) entry route. Salary including allowances.
salary increases to £39,181 after two years or £40,837 after three years for PCDA, upon satisfactory completion of probation. Salary including allowances.
salary will increase each year up to over £54,000 within seven years
on promotion to the next police rank – sergeant – you can earn over £57,000. Most officers apply for sergeant after five years as a constable."

Perhaps that's because their pay has kept up with inflation?