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Murder or manslaughter

(83 Posts)
Rivernana Sun 15-Dec-19 17:45:42

What are your opinions on the Sally Challen case? Was it right to overturn her conviction for murder? Not many people (men or women) in abusive relationships go so far as to kill their abuser.

Granniesunite Sun 15-Dec-19 21:01:59

Emotional Abuse in all its forms is a “Killer “in itself. It destroys a person from the inside and it can take decades to recover from it if indeed a person ever does at all.

Time is no healer in these cases.

Because there are no physical signs it makes it harder to understand which in a way makes it harder for the person who experiences it.

It was her or him probably in her mind and the sons were totally behind her.

Smileless2012 Sun 15-Dec-19 21:04:36

I agree Granniesunite which is why I posted earlier 'kill or be killed'.

Anniebach Sun 15-Dec-19 21:07:02

when I was involved with a woman’s refuge here, some women seeking refuge still met their partners on the quiet.

I wonder if there was to be no reconciliation and her mind was so damaged she still wanted to be back with him

Granniesunite Sun 15-Dec-19 21:18:00

Yes smileless just read your post. ?.

Anniebach. Who knows what was in her mind at that time. Abuse emotional really does make you ill yourself. And yes some women do go back to their abuser time after time.
It’s soul destroying.

MissAdventure Sun 15-Dec-19 21:24:37

If it was premeditated, regardless of the reasons why, then it's murder, in my opinion.

EllanVannin Sun 15-Dec-19 21:38:57

MissAdventure, the woman was not in her right mind. She had what's known as an adjustment disorder which is an abnormality of the mind that impairs her mental responsibility for her acts.

In other words she'd gone through so much psychological abuse in her marriage that her mind was in such a state that she wasn't responsible for her actions when she murdered her husband.

She now has to live with that for the rest of her life and whether she finds peace of mind remains to be seen. At least her sons are there for her.

EllanVannin Sun 15-Dec-19 21:40:37

Does having a mental illness excuse murder ?

MissAdventure Sun 15-Dec-19 21:52:59

I've every sympathy for her state of mind, but still think that premeditated killing is murder.

Davidhs Sun 15-Dec-19 22:04:40

The test is, “ is she a threat to others or society in general”
As she had been provoked for years it is manslaughter no doubt.
There will be a custodial sentence but not very long.

MissAdventure Sun 15-Dec-19 22:07:27

Sentences are so short it probably makes little difference.

oldgimmer1 Mon 16-Dec-19 07:38:24

Umm..she's already out, after having served 8 or 9 years of her murder sentence.

She was given 22 for murder - probably would have been out in 15 or do anyway.

DavidChallen Mon 16-Dec-19 09:00:52

@EllanVannin pretty sure no one was excusing her actions?Quite important to recognise mental health under diminished responsibility if we're to learn anything.

Davida1968 Mon 16-Dec-19 10:15:10

I agree with Smiless2012.

grannybuy Mon 16-Dec-19 10:35:36

Did she perhaps take the hammer in case she might need it if he became abusive? When my DH became physically aggressive due to dementia, I sometimes had a rolling pin under my pillow.

icanhandthemback Mon 16-Dec-19 10:35:49

The trouble with abuse is that it causes you to question yourself. You are told continually that whatever "punishment" you receive, it is your fault. If you hadn't done something then they, the abuser, wouldn't have had to act that way. You get into a pattern of continually questioning your own actions and after a time, you become convinced that you could have controlled the situation better. Consequently, when you part and things go wrong, you do miss the abuser who has normally controlled everything. I can absolutely see why she thought she wanted him back. You may have to be out of the situation for many years before you become independent of that sort of person and some women never manage it.

jenpax Mon 16-Dec-19 10:46:14

I suspect she was suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and as has rightly been pointed out she was not “in her right mind” .For murder to be an appropriate charge, the accused has to have culpable intent; she may have had intent to kill, but she did not have culpable intent, because the balance of her mind was disturbed and therefore she was rightly convicted of manslaughter in my opinion.
As others have pointed out years of psychological and emotional abuse will have long term damage to the victim including the onset of PTSD and other mental health problems.

MerylStreep Mon 16-Dec-19 10:48:30

oopsminty
He anally raped her several times. Her words.

grannytotwins Mon 16-Dec-19 10:56:43

I empathise with her to a degree having suffered mental and physical abuse in my previous marriage. I was so tempted once when a sharp knife was on the worktop within easy reach, but the thought of my children stopped me. There were no refuges then and the police didn’t recognise domestic violence. I’d have got life. I would say, that in my case, separation didn’t stop the abuse. It came in other forms, so the fact she lived apart from him was probably irrelevant. Taking a hammer though? I might have done for self defence.

Jishere Mon 16-Dec-19 11:01:15

This surely has got to be a hard one to judge. Unless you know the absolute ins and outs of it.
On the surface years of abuse becomes the norm for lots of women, very destructive on the self, so I can see how someone would snap when they see no other way out.
So as Sally has been a victim I think she deserves a bit of peace and a second chance of life.
In a perfect world she should have left and restarted again. But would he have gone on to abuse another? Rather than rightings his wrong ways.

sarahellenwhitney Mon 16-Dec-19 11:04:42

Abusers blow hot and cold. One moment they are apologising for their actions the next they claim it is the other persons fault. The lady was familiar with this and if as stated she went to discuss reconciliation she would not know how he would re act based on her experience of this man. Her mental state after years of abuse would have been taken into consideration.

pinkquartz Mon 16-Dec-19 11:06:35

She met age just 16...far too young.
She could not face life without him, she had left him was living somewhere else but he was playing with her.
He was lying to her.
It wasn't so simple.

Smileless2012 Mon 16-Dec-19 11:08:39

How many who manage to leave their abusive partner, spend the rest of their lives living in fear and looking over their shoulder, for fear of being found again?

It's unusual for women to kill with such violence, which surely says a lot about this poor woman's state of mind.

jannxxx Mon 16-Dec-19 11:10:51

if they were separated for a year then she went looking for him with a hammer then it should be murder, but they argue a battered woman suffers from the equivalent to a battle syndrome where they live in fear all the time, so maybe that's the illness they put forward in court

Smileless2012 Mon 16-Dec-19 11:14:10

It's referred too as 'battered wife syndrome' and if the reports in connection to her state of mind had been presented at the original trial, the verdict may well have been different.

Maccyt1955 Mon 16-Dec-19 11:27:31

I agree with Smiless2012 and other posters sympathetic to the case.
Actually I think both Sally and her husband were mentally ill.
He was extraordinarily cruel and abusive.
Sending Christmas cards to friends and neighbours of him sitting on a car bonnet with two practically nude women was absolutely bizarre.
What kind of message did that send to their sons?
Sally is obviously still ill...she believes she still loves him.
The while case is so sad...but coercive control has now been passed into law as a defence, and so it should be.