Council Tax for State Pensioners

You’re being rather nasty to Norah, growstuff. It may be that the present sp system becomes unsustainable and that NI payments are reduced with the intention of people making their own pension arrangements.

But huge numbers of people either wouldn’t or couldn’t make regular savings into a pension scheme and then the government would have to make provision for those people upon retirement.

Germanshepherdsmum

You’re being rather nasty to Norah, growstuff. It may be that the present sp system becomes unsustainable and that NI payments are reduced with the intention of people making their own pension arrangements.

That would be 'fair', so that those paying in get out. But what about those who can't pay in, as they are struggling together by as it is? If they would get a means-tested payment, what is the point of paying in, unless you can afford to lift yourself way above that threshold?

What about those who won't pay in as they won't work? Are they to be left to starve? Should the burden of paying tax continue be pushed onto workers so that non-workers can live free?

And what about those of us for whom it's too late (like most of us on here, no doubt)? How do we make up for decades of deficit, unless the payments we have made already are transferred to a new scheme? Who would take that admin task on - it would be phenomenal, and would still be a government scheme at heart.

Having just written about the Australian system (above) what are the drawbacks to us moving to such a system as long as it is properly done?

To reply to Doodledog: I don’t envisage the sp being phased out until our children’s children start work, so that they have a proper chance to make their own arrangements. Those who cannot work for medical reasons would receive benefits, which I think it would be fair to pay on a means-tested basis; not all people medically unfit to work are poor - some may have received large compensation payments or inheritances. Those who refuse to work, so far as I’m concerned, would receive nothing.

I think that's right GSM, although I couldn't pinpoint the generation Would you mind going and telling your party that making proper arrangement to offset our slightly odd State Pension is essential if we are going to do it in a way that serves everyone.

Why did they start the payment into the Workplace Pension at 22. I love the fact that Australia starts at 17? All those small amounts compounding over the years have been missed. Why have they done so little about it over the years they have had in government. If they really are thinking about abandoning the State Pension as we know it they will have to replace it with a benefit. What have they been doing all this time?

I’m not a party member Daisy. Just a voter.

I know you are not a party member GSM but you seem to be a strong supporter.

DaisyAnne

Having just written about the Australian system (above) what are the drawbacks to us moving to such a system as long as it is properly done?

The Australian system relies on very large compulsory contributions by employers. Business owners have to pay super for even casual, itinerant employees such as backpackers.

All employees are covered by the superannuation guarantee. It applies to full-time, part-time and casual workers
business.gov.au/finance/superannuation

Add in holiday pay for all workers, casual and part-time too, plus a high minimum wage and this shows why prices, particularly for food, have risen rapidly over the last few years in Australia.

Why did they start the payment into the Workplace Pension at 22. I love the fact that Australia starts at 17?

Another drawback (or not) is that you can withdraw from your superannuation fund at any time if you are suffering hardship, there is no lower age limit.
People did that when times were difficult during Covid lockdowns when there may have been little work.

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Not everyone who has worked 40 years feels exhausted and many people now work past retirement age because they want to (and some work on because they need to).

i can quite understand that someone who is working beyond 40 years because they want to, will find it difficult to realise that others, for health reasons may not be able to.

But we also need to realise that a larger and larger amount of money is needed to meet the payment of these pensions - and that money has to come from a smaller and smaller workforce.

When pensions were introduced, on average, people only lived 7 years beyond the retirement age. Now it is 20 years and rising. Then we had a rising population where the percentage of pensoners to work force was quite low, now a larger and larger proportion of the population is over 60.

In Japan, which is the country with the highest proportion of old people in the world, someone has recently suggested that when people reach a certain age, they should be encouraged to commit suicide, for the sake of the country, to reduce the burden the cost of paying pensions is putting on younger people and the country's finances.

It is all very well to want to increase pensions, and not increase pension age, plus all the other support we give older people, but is it fair to put such a burden on our children and grandchildren?

No, it’s not fair. Logic dictates that the pension age has to rise. I worked for well over 40 years too. I would not describe myself as having been exhausted - and I was commuting for four hours a day on top of doing a stressful job.

Germanshepherdsmum

No, it’s not fair. Logic dictates that the pension age has to rise. I worked for well over 40 years too. I would not describe myself as having been exhausted - and I was commuting for four hours a day on top of doing a stressful job.

The major issue isn’t for professional staff though, it’s for people whose jobs involve a lot of manual labour, because their bodies literally wear out. It’s a very rare ward based nurse who is physically able to work beyond their mid sixties for example because so many develop back, neck, shoulder and joint problems.

growstuff

Germanshepherdsmum

You’re being rather nasty to Norah, growstuff. It may be that the present sp system becomes unsustainable and that NI payments are reduced with the intention of people making their own pension arrangements.

I think somebody who has not experienced what it's like to be exhausted from work after 40+ years and then supports raising the state pension age is pretty nasty.

I did not say I supported pension age going up.

I said I feel logically, by numbers, it's going to have to happen.

The pensions system, as it exists, is not sustainable.

BTW, Someone must be at home pulling life together if a family has a person who works 10-12 hr days, going straight to nights in self employment/ business building.

BTW Some people worked full-time and didn't have anybody at home for any of the time. Somehow they still pulled home life together.

They paid income tax and NICs and thoroughly deserve their retirement and pensions. Society would have reached rock bottom, if such people couldn't enjoy a few years of health retirement before the grim reaper calls.

The current pension arrangements aren't unsustainable. It depends on society's priorities and its red lines.

Germanshepherdsmum

No, it’s not fair. Logic dictates that the pension age has to rise. I worked for well over 40 years too. I would not describe myself as having been exhausted - and I was commuting for four hours a day on top of doing a stressful job.

Well, I was absolutely exhausted. I had a long commute too on top of working 60 hours a week in an extremely stressful job and bringing up two young children on my own. There is absolutely no way I could have continued until my late 60s or 70.

Germanshepherdsmum

No, it’s not fair. Logic dictates that the pension age has to rise. I worked for well over 40 years too. I would not describe myself as having been exhausted - and I was commuting for four hours a day on top of doing a stressful job.

No, the pension age doesn't have to rise. People possibly need to be prepared to pay more in taxes/NICs, but there is no logical reason why the current pension age can't be maintained.

The current pension arrangements aren't unsustainable. It depends on society's priorities and its red lines.

I totally disagree. there may well come a time when pensions can only be paid at the cost of neglecting other priority groups, children and health for example. There is only so much juice in a lemon.

If income tax had to go up to over 50p in the £1, for example to pay pensions. I think there might be a problem.

As I said, a Japanese Professor is suggesting elderly people should commit suicide to reduce the burden old people are on the state. And while it has been greeted generally with horror, there are a number of people who have said that this may need to be considered. In Japan 30% of the population is over 65.
www.firstpost.com/world/yale-professor-tells-japanese-senior-citizens-to-kill-themselves-to-deal-with-countrys-aging-population-12146522.html .

We should not exclude younger people in the UK making similar duggestions at a future date, if the cost of paying our pensions becomes too onerous.

The current pension arrangements aren't unsustainable. It depends on society's priorities and its red lines.

M0nica: I totally disagree. there may well come a time when pensions can only be paid at the cost of neglecting.... (whatever other items)

Agreed.

Note: Armageddon's near. M0nica isn't typically on my page.

I am afraid I was born with feet of clay. I do not let ideas of social justice, and, do not get me wrong, I have all the social justice aspirations others have, get in the way of considering what is practical and possible, even if it means accepting that we cannot afford, all the things we would like to do and, at times, have to make hard decisions.

I don’t agree with abolishing council tax for state pensioners but I certainly think it should be reduced.

Granless That is the purpose of Council Tax Benefit. It reduces the cost of council tax for poorer pensioners. I am mpore than capable of paying my full council tax bill, and there is no justification at all for giving me any reduction, regardless of my age.

There is only so much juice in a lemon.

You do allow absolute rubbish to influence you M0nica.

I will use your illogical comparison of a lemon to a country's income/GDP. The world is full of very different size lemons. These lemons can grow and diminish depending on how they are tended by governments.

The last 13 years have somewhat diminished the size of our lemon. We have, therefore, less juice available or against which we can borrow other's juice, to expand our lemon once again. But we still have the sixth-largest lemon!

We can turn this around, but not by using the methods/ethos of the last 13 years. It is in the interests of growing our lemon to have a fit and healthy population that can a) tend the lemon and b) use less juice in the long run to uphold that healthy and fit population.

So, unlike the 13 years of this government, we may see prioritising the health of those tending the lemon as more important than giving those who have a large share of the juice and like to bet on the juice quantity, more juice

DaisyAnne The size of the economy is irrelevant. It is the ratio between wage earners and those claiming pension and benefits that is key. Evena rich country like Japan is struggling because 30% of its population are over 60, the highest proportion in the world. It isackenowledged that this is holding back the economy - and driving down the birth rate, thus exascerbating the situation.

A Japanese academic has even suggested that one solution to the economic stagnation of the Japanes economy might be to encourage older people to commit suicide. Japan does have a history of suicide being an honourable deed in some circumstances.