Council Tax for State Pensioners

M0nica

^The current pension arrangements aren't unsustainable. It depends on society's priorities and its red lines.^

I totally disagree. there may well come a time when pensions can only be paid at the cost of neglecting other priority groups, children and health for example. There is only so much juice in a lemon.

If income tax had to go up to over 50p in the £1, for example to pay pensions. I think there might be a problem.

As I said, a Japanese Professor is suggesting elderly people should commit suicide to reduce the burden old people are on the state. And while it has been greeted generally with horror, there are a number of people who have said that this may need to be considered. In Japan 30% of the population is over 65.
www.firstpost.com/world/yale-professor-tells-japanese-senior-citizens-to-kill-themselves-to-deal-with-countrys-aging-population-12146522.html .

We should not exclude younger people in the UK making similar duggestions at a future date, if the cost of paying our pensions becomes too onerous.

No, most of the money paid in state pensions returns to the Treasury via direct taxation and/or the goods pensioners buy.

I'm not excluding younger people. They are the ones who would be affected by a rise in pension age and lack of money circulating in the economy.

There are other measures which could be taken before raising the state pension age, such as taxing higher rate taxpayers the standard rate on their pension contributions. It's estimated that at least £8 billion could be raised, if the state stopped the subsidy to higher rate taxpayers. The state could also tax people with unearned income on a par wit those who pay PAYE.

M0nica

I am afraid I was born with feet of clay. I do not let ideas of social justice, and, do not get me wrong, I have all the social justice aspirations others have, get in the way of considering what is practical and possible, even if it means accepting that we cannot afford, all the things we would like to do and, at times, have to make hard decisions.

And a head which refuses to look at some facts.

M0nica

DaisyAnne The size of the economy is irrelevant. It is the ratio between wage earners and those claiming pension and benefits that is key. Evena rich country like Japan is struggling because 30% of its population are over 60, the highest proportion in the world. It isackenowledged that this is holding back the economy - and driving down the birth rate, thus exascerbating the situation.

A Japanese academic has even suggested that one solution to the economic stagnation of the Japanes economy might be to encourage older people to commit suicide. Japan does have a history of suicide being an honourable deed in some circumstances.

You forgot the tax paid on assets.

Most of the money paid in state pension returns to the Treasury via direct taxation and/or the goods pensioners buy

Some, yes - how do you substantiate ‘most’ growstuff?

growstuff, we have the example of Japan, wherever government revenues come from, they are causing the country serious problems and leading to some people, and I doubt the academic who spoke out is alone, suggesting that the elderly population should cull itself.

M0nica

DaisyAnne The size of the economy is irrelevant. It is the ratio between wage earners and those claiming pension and benefits that is key. Evena rich country like Japan is struggling because 30% of its population are over 60, the highest proportion in the world. It isackenowledged that this is holding back the economy - and driving down the birth rate, thus exascerbating the situation.

A Japanese academic has even suggested that one solution to the economic stagnation of the Japanes economy might be to encourage older people to commit suicide. Japan does have a history of suicide being an honourable deed in some circumstances.

No, it isn't. It's the ratio between taxes (for simplicity, Maizie, if you are reading) and those of pension age.

We are not Japan. Why mention suicide? It is part of the culture of the Japanese. It is not part of our culture and never has been. Yes, we have an ageing population. But you make it sound like we are a people in the depths of an African desert, with no real economy and the need to breed enough children to keep us in our old age. Whereas we live in one of the richest, most educated countries.

We led that world into the industrial revolution. We had the trade routes, the raw materials, the talent and the skills. We lived through social changes and benefited from a stable government.

The Forth Revolution will need physical, digital, and biological skills. We have all these. Where we have built great feats of engineering in the past, we can now build for the future in other ways . We may not understand it all, but our children and their children will. We can enhance current education based on the progress we have achieved in the recent past. When we stop attacking them with petty name-calling, we can link with other countries, who share our history, to help us build our way forward.

We may want to change the way we pay pensions. But why are you thinking we must move pensioners into poverty? In the 1930s, plans were made that led us to changes for the entire country in the late 1940s. We became an inclusive society. We understood how good communities can work for the betterment of every person. We chose not to despise labour and laud wealth, but to see people as equals. Why, oh why, do you think we need to go backwards now?

The one thing the Conservatives got right (but then Labour has been saying the same thing forever) is that we need to grow the economy. To do this, we need a stable government. We have spent 13 years learning that this is not the Conservative forte. We have watched the Conservatives destroy, not build, and shrink rather than grow.

It isn't the poor who are the most important. It isn't the rich who are most important, and it isn't the middle who are most important. All are important. If everyone works to grow the economy, we can certainly afford pensions for those whose working lives are the ones on which our children build their future.