State pension rise

MOnica, thank you for looking..

The figure being quoted is income from all sources before housing costs, which includes council tax and rent/mortgage. Many pensioners don't pay rent or mortgage, so that's irrelevant, but for those who do it is relevant.

Of course, everyone is different.

Some have no mortgage since they were 45. Some also don't drive and maintain autos, some have helpful family, some don't - none of that makes matter to the average or mean income of pensioners.

Norah

^The figure being quoted is income from all sources before housing costs, which includes council tax and rent/mortgage. Many pensioners don't pay rent or mortgage, so that's irrelevant, but for those who do it is relevant.^

Of course, everyone is different.

Some have no mortgage since they were 45. Some also don't drive and maintain autos, some have helpful family, some don't - none of that makes matter to the average or mean income of pensioners.

I was just clarifying some of the claims being made.

I receive housing benefit and have an NHS low income certificate, but I still pay income tax.

Many pensioners with low incomes do pay income tax.

It doesn't make any difference to whether the triple lock is affordable either. It is, and has to remain so if there is not to be widespread pensioner poverty.

The alternative is more and more people falling into pension credit, which might make them better off as their rent would be paid and they would get discount on council tax etc, but then they really are on benefits and subject to checks on any changes in circumstance which might mean that they no longer get the money to which their contributions should make them entitled.

I suspect that the government might like this, as they would be able to stop paying the majority of people the state pension. They seem to be softening up the younger generations to accept that this is somehow 'fair'.

No, I didn't misread MOnica and DAR. I read the details.

PS. I also understand the different interpretations of "average" - goodness knows, I've bleating on about the misunderstanding of "average" for long enough!

Doodledog People don't need to receive Pension Credit to be eligible for housing benefit.

Pension Credit, Housing Benefit, Council Tax reduction, the NHS low income scheme and the income tax system work independently of each other, which is why there are anomalies.

Not only that, but the amount people receive in state pension (or Pension Credit) has very little correlation with how much they have actually contributed.

growstuff

Not only that, but the amount people receive in state pension (or Pension Credit) has very little correlation with how much they have actually contributed.

No, I know. But the government might prefer to have fewer people getting more money each as it would still be cheaper than giving everyone a pension that is based on what they have contributed.

I also know that people don't need to get PC to get HB - I don't think I implied otherwise?

No one said you did misread it growstuff. Just that misreading the post was the only way it could be seen as "misleading" as it was made very clear why the two different ways of looking at pensions had been used as examples.

Can we stop this now? It was of very little importance, except to show that even those in the know approach pensions with different views of what is important.

DaisyAnneReturns

No one said you did misread it growstuff. Just that misreading the post was the only way it could be seen as "misleading" as it was made very clear why the two different ways of looking at pensions had been used as examples.

Can we stop this now? It was of very little importance, except to show that even those in the know approach pensions with different views of what is important.

I had no intention of continuing, but it's not up to you to dismiss the point I was making, which you seem to have missed.

My point was that even those in receipt of amounts well below the average (whether mean, mode or median) often pay income tax, which some posters were denying.

Strangely enough, the amount I receive in pensions is important to me - and I expect many others feel the same. The figures being bandied around were meaningless.

Thank you!

Doodledog

growstuff

Not only that, but the amount people receive in state pension (or Pension Credit) has very little correlation with how much they have actually contributed.

No, I know. But the government might prefer to have fewer people getting more money each as it would still be cheaper than giving everyone a pension that is based on what they have contributed.

I also know that people don't need to get PC to get HB - I don't think I implied otherwise?

Yes, you did. You implied that people receiving pension credit would get their rent paid.

I suggest you look into some of the details.

MOnica, apparently it would need normal distribution to find the cluster but, as we don't have the initial information I think it will be a long time coming

Yes, you did. You implied that people receiving pension credit would get their rent paid.

They do.

I also know that people don't need to get PC to get HB - I don't think I implied otherwise? Doodledog

You implied that people receiving pension credit would get their rent paid. growstuff

Growstuff, these two statements are not mutually exclusive. Yes, it is possible to get Housing Benefit without getting Pension Credit and yes, it is true that people getting Pension Credit are likely to get Housing Benefit if they rent.

It sounds as if, under current rules, you are getting everything you are due.

Growstuff, these two statements are not mutually exclusive. Yes, it is possible to get Housing Benefit without getting Pension Credit and yes, it is true that people getting Pension Credit are likely to get Housing Benefit if they rent.

Thank you. In the context of my post, I didn't think that needed saying, or that it was particularly relevant, but obviously I was wrong.

DAR given the skewed nature of the nature of the distribution, I would expect the mode to be close to the median..

You may find this link useful. byjus.com/maths/relation-between-mean-median-and-mode/

M0nica

DAR given the skewed nature of the nature of the distribution, I would expect the mode to be close to the median..

You may find this link useful. byjus.com/maths/relation-between-mean-median-and-mode/

You could well be right MOnica.

growstuff

Pension Credit, Housing Benefit, Council Tax reduction, the NHS low income scheme and the income tax system work independently of each other, which is why there are anomalies.

I'm not sure that paints the entire picture. The amounts below are calculated and added into a person's "appropriate amount". Amounts may be paid as Pension Credit, even if your income isn't low enough to give you Pension Credit.

*extra amount for severe disability
*extra amount for carers
*extra amount for housing costs (for example service charges) – to cover certain accommodation costs that are not met by Housing Benefit - this applies to both owned and rented properties
*transitional extra amount – for some people who were getting Income Support or income-based Jobseeker’s Allowance or income related Employment and Support Allowance before they started to get Pension Credit

If you are on the Old Pension and get a small amount in Pension Savings Credit the addition of one or more of these can also tip you into Guarantee Credit.

This would mean that some additional benefits you would only get partially and on application under Savings Credit become automatic and in full. It is always worth people claiming, even if all you get is a few pounds in Pension Savings Credit, as it could well increase over the years.

It is an over-complicated system. If all the people who could claim, did claim, it might make governments look at a simpler Living Pension as the basic rate.

The New Pension will simplify things somewhat, in years to come.

I'm not disagreeing with you DAR. It is an over-complicated system, which is the point I was trying to make. You're right that the new state pension should simplify matters in the future because almost nobody will be eligible for Pension Credit. I was also trying to correct the belief that pensioners with low incomes don't pay income tax.

The intention is that almost nobody will need to be eligible for Pension Credit. This is a move towards a basic pension that is at a living level. The trouble is that the poorest pensioners will be the oldest pensioners and that will only get worse.

You may not be disagreeing on pensions but your personal issues, as we have discussed in the past, are more to do with rent and rental costs than pensions. That is very much a subject in its own right.

maddyone

LizzieDrip

My point is more that not everyone who has worked for many years in the public sector will have a 'gold plated' pension, despite what the media like to imply.

Absolutely doodle! Many of us who worked in the public sector were unaware that being ‘contracted out’ would affect our future SP. Also, I was given no choice about being contracted out - it simply happened! I have 41 years NI contributions but still don’t get the full SP.

Yes LizzieDrip I’m another who ‘contracted out.’ I was never asked, never consulted, never told. If I had been asked I would have not opted out and instead paid the full NHS contribution. Since it was costing me several hundred pounds a month anyway, it never occurred to me that it was reduced. I wonder how much it was actually reduced? Not very much I’ll bet, but I don’t know the answer to that to this day. So along with missing the new pension by three weeks, receiving a reduced pension too, I still don’t know how much the government took without my agreement in contracted out payments.
The way women have been treated by the DWP for years is misogynistic and the way WASPI women have been treated in my opinion is unprintable!

@maddyone you didn't miss out on the new state pension by three weeks that is not how it worked it was never the case of if you reached state pension after 6th April 2016 you automatically get the new state pension amount in fact the governments own figures show less than half of pensioners who get their pensions under the new rules get it

You like everyone else who have a NI history pre 2016 would have been given a starting amount this was based on two calculations what you would have got if the rules hadn't changed and what you would have got if the new rules had been in place all your working life, a contracted out deduction was applied to each calculation and you got the higher of the two.

If your starting amount was higher than the new state pension you kept the extra as a protected amount but any NICS you accrued after that did not increase your pension if lower then any NIC/Credits would increase your pension until you reached the NSP amount or SPA which ever came sooner, as you were contracted out your starting amount would have been lower and the fact that you reached SPA in tax year 2016/2017 meant you didn't have any more qualifying tax years to increase it.

You are also incorrect to say that the government 'took' your contracted out payments, when you were contracted out either you and your employer paid a reduced amount in NI or you paid the full amount and some was diverted into your works/company pension either way you paid less into the state scheme than someone who was not contracted out, also the Government did not contract you out without your agreement it was your employer who did that, and it was your employer who had a statutory duty to inform you that they had and how it would affect your ultimate state pension entitlement, depending on what type of scheme your works pension is in it should be the same or even higher than the SERPS you lost.

This is not my opinion or how I think it works everything I have said is totally checkable on Government websites and other organisations sites such as Ageuk, it has also been thoroughly explained on pension advice sites by very knowledgeable people.

I am a WASPI woman myself BTW