Tia

nanad thank you,I was trying to illustrate the sensationalism that is created at a untimely death by unnatural causes....if the death was through Illness and therefore not public only close friends and family would know,and you don't get all the flowers etc outside the home,that only seems to happen when it is death where violence,or an unnatural end has occurred,"normal " bereavements of which I have had with another child and parents didn't attract that same level of interest where outsiders where trying to get their moment of "fame" ......I am hoping that you and your family are well,a whopping great hole gets left in your life ,although the hole is always there you in time get used to treading round the hole,and life becomes sweet again with all the happy memories....xxxxlove nellie

nellie are you saying that you have lost two children?
I can't begin to comprehend how you even get through a day, you truly are an amazing woman.
are not enough

thank you ella yes ,my first daughter died in infancy from brain injuries received at birth.....without sounding trite,the saying " what dosent kill you,makes you stronger" does ring true.....but I did have her for a short time,and use that as appositive....the same with Kate would rather have had her,than never have the pleasure at all.......xxx

Bless you nellie

I understand everything you say nellie. Yes, it is like a huge great hole that at first you just keep falling into.

I send you this quote which reflects exactly what you say...

"there is only one certain truth - even had I known that there would ever come the cruel grief I suffer today, I would endure it all again for the wonder of having had you in my life."

I know what Iam about to say will upset a lot of people, but here goes.

I think that with the forensics and DNA we have to day, when there is no doubt at all that a murder has been commited, the we should have full corporal punishment back, Yes hanging. Why should we pay for this man with our taxes,to be banged up with all luxury facilities, like tv, games, computer etc. When he has taken a life so young and so dear. Just hang the man and put her family out of their misery, knowing he can never do this to anyone again.

I think that, being in prison as a child murderer will not be a barrel of laughs for him. Even prisoners have a moral code. His life will be hell.

Lifers who have killed a child are often segregated for their own safety. The punishment is the prison and the regime, which is brutal in comparison with life in the community. They don't live in luxury but are allowed a TV, and will be on basic regime until they demonstrate certain attitudes and standards of behaviour. They are expected to work and/or participate in education, be on offending behaviour programmes and receive challenging therapeutic input, as well as drug and alcohol programmes, where relevant. They have to show consistency before they are allowed enhanced regime, which can include association where it is safe and an extra prison visit. They certainly don't live in luxury.

Few prisoners get to play on computers and TV games, but they do get to grab press attention where they have been made available. Little attention is paid to the bullying and brutality, and it is the measure of our society that this is rationalised as justified revenge. I do not agree with corporal or capital punishment. It's like belting a child for being violent and expecting them to learn to be more gentle. Doesn't work.

nellie I feel for you. I don't have your experience so cannot fully appreciate what you have been through and have to live with because I have never lost a living child. I did lose 2 brothers and a cousin in car accidents and suffered many miscarriages but these pale in comparison to losing a live child. It may have made you stronger but you must suffer again every time you hear about the death of a child.

nanadog & littlenellie

littlenellie...in spite of the heartbreak that you have had to deal with, you are an amazing person. I admire you.
nanadog Bless you.

Littllenellie, and nanadogsbody, my heart goes out to you. I had a baby boy who died from cot-death 44 years ago. There is nothing that makes it any easier, even the years that pass don't soften anything. When the time for his birthday comes near, I try to contain myself, but it's very difficult. Always there's the raw questioning in my mind of - why did I let this happen? It's how it is, and when the day has passed by, I can let it go again, hoping that it'll be a bit better next year. My son, who is my fourth, once said to me, "Mum, I know it's the wrong thing to say, but if J had lived you may not have had E and me?" I want all of them, though.

green ((hugs))

green

And to you, soop and Gally. and . That's life. xx

Littlenellie

NanaDB

nellie and nanadog - my sympathy too.

forestlady - sadly pathologists are not infallible and although DNA evidence is used now, it is not unknown for samples to be mishandled .
There are still miscarriages of justice despite DNA evidence and sometimes because of it - whenever I think of the hanging of James Hanratty and Ruth Ellis I still can't quite believe these things happened in this country in my lifetime.

Good post when

I wouldn't want hanging brought back. Whether people are thought to 'deserve' it or not, I like to think that our society is now more civilised than it was.

I agree, and I'm pretty sure no government will bring the death penalty back.

I agree Anagram would hate to see the death penalty reinstated, I personally find it one of the things I find unacceptable about America, I know it doesn't apply in all the States there but when I read about just how many executions George Bush jnr.'s brother presided over it made me shudder.

It is simple for me, I couldn't administer a lethal drug so don't think it is right that anyone else should. I don't want the power to determine if someone should live or die.

* nanad* yes that sums it all up doesn't it,eventually you know the hole is there but you move round it..thank you..
alison your loss is your. Personal sense of loss,unmeasurable by others loss or grief,you grieve after a miscarriage...I have had one of those also,for what might have been,a name a face,a sex even,your hopes and dreams for that child,it is no less painful,just different...so bless you for your post...
and all of you who have so caring enough to post such kind thoughts,time does heal,and when I tell my story it is relevant to a thread that is going on,I always try not to elicit sympathy and portray myself as a victim,as I would rather be judged not for my problems ,but how I deal with them...so thank you all for all your kind words....

With regard to the death penalty...I don't believe in an eye for an eye,long term imprisonment is a drain on society financially,but I do like the idea of the law of the jungle where the murderers etc are meted out punishment by others,for a long time I hoped E,s father would suffer from some incur able painful illness and a slow death.....but what can be worse,I have his child he has no contact,he must wonder every day of his life and think of her...for me that is justice enough,and by seeing myself as a victim,then he has control over my life,and has claimed another victim...

green bless you,how can you forget they where part of you,and each child you have is another blessing ,not a replacement.....big hugs for you too

Love to you all from nelliexxxxx

I cannot imagine what it must be like to lose a child so to those of you to whom it has happened.