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David Cameron and Europe - is he falling on his sword?

(21 Posts)
JessM Tue 15-Jan-13 15:45:54

What thoughts do we have about this? The PM is about to make a big speech on Europe. He has a Tory party that is divided on the issue. In one corner there are the anti- Europe lot who would like him to take the UK out of the EU. On the other side are the business orientated Tories who would probably hate this to happen. Then there is UKIP which threatens to take Tory votes at the next election because it will damage trade. There is talk of a referendum about pulling out of the EU. And of course UKIP will never play the immigration card will they...
He would obviously like to do a Thatcher - negotiate a special deal that favours the UK. But the EU is much bigger now. And economic times are hard. Is he really going to get away with saying "give me what i ask or i will take the UK out"
Looks like one of those damned what ever he does situations to me. What do you think?

Mishap Tue 15-Jan-13 16:02:00

I am always very concerned about referenda - it is crazy to ask people to vote on things that they do not understand. I truly cannot claim to understand all the implications of our membership of the EU and asking me to vote on it is ridiculous. I am a resonably well-educated person, and I feel unable to make a reasoned judgement about it - there must be others who feel equally or even less confident about their ability to make a decision on this.

We are all swayed by the headline-grabbing bits of nonsense legislation that emanate from the EU (the whole business of women's car insurance springs to mind) but these are not the whole story.

Nelliemoser Tue 15-Jan-13 16:25:56

mishap I agree with you! Just how many of the UK voters can properly explain the economic and political pros and cons of remaining in the EU. Me included.
I suspect that many "no votes" would be on the basis of xenophobia alone.

Lilygran Tue 15-Jan-13 16:35:34

Clegg on 'Today' this morning explained over and over again that there will ONLY be a referendum if there's a new treaty and then only IF that new treaty significantly affects UK's relationship with Europe. So no need to worry, then?

Mishap Tue 15-Jan-13 16:55:43

Well - let's hope not.

Poor Clegg though - I felt so embarrassed for him in that joint press conference that he and DC did - the whole Ronseal bit was cringe-worthy - they both looked like idiots.

Movedalot Tue 15-Jan-13 16:59:04

I don't think there will be a referendum because as mishap says we don't understand enough to vote sensibly and the government knows this. On balance I think we are better off in the EU and if DC is able to renegotiate even a little bit that will be a good thing.

JessM Tue 15-Jan-13 17:02:19

The amount of time and effort that would be required to negotiate a new treaty... I can't even begin to imagine. And probably all the member states would have to have their own votes on it...

jeni Tue 15-Jan-13 17:02:38

Referenda are horribly expensive and the questions impossible to pose fairly without bias. Vide the scots issue!

annodomini Tue 15-Jan-13 17:05:09

A referendum would be over-influenced by the unelected proprietors of the anti-European tabloid press.

JessM Tue 15-Jan-13 17:56:10

Yes the Scots' one one is having a two year campaign isn't it Jeni
Like your use of the Latin plural. referendums always sounds wrong to me.

Ariadne Tue 15-Jan-13 19:01:40

Agree! Referenda, I mean! Sighs pedantically.

Butty Tue 15-Jan-13 19:07:48

If there was a referendum, and it showed an unfavourable result (to DC that is), then he could always go the Irish route and hold another one. wink

Elegran Tue 15-Jan-13 19:27:42

Keep repeating until we get it right?

FlicketyB Tue 15-Jan-13 21:07:30

David Cameron's decision on a referendum will be driven by which way the wind is blowing on the day the decision is made. Much was made of New Labour and its dependence on focus groups in making decisions. This government is every bit as sensitive to every zephyr of public opinion as Blair ever was, but lacks Blair's subtlety in responding on it.

I never thought I would ever see an economically and managerially grossly incompetent Conservative government but, by god. we have got one now.

POGS Tue 15-Jan-13 22:28:35

I have my thoughts on the E.U. issue and I respect DC for at least not rolling over to the EU elite. He has time and again said he beleives we are better in than out of the EU but also says that there are many failings that need to be addressed. What is wrong with that? IT'S TRUE.

He has tried to make it clear that it's not as simple as 'In or Out' until avenues of possible change to our membership have been debated. The british people must have a firm grasp of the situaton and they don't at the moment know if, what and when any change to our membership may, or may not, take place. The status quo could remain, probably will, but at least he is giving it a shot.

I think we forget that there are other countries who are more accepting of his view but are rarely spoken of. Netherlands, Sweden are examples. Today I have seen it reported that thousands have been signing in Germany to stop Germany granting Brussells more financial powers. Things maybe on the move in other countries too and maybe DC is not so isolated as the british press and media would have us believe.

It is certainly an interesting situation and one I think will cause a lot of trouble in the near future given that Labour and Lib Dems are so intent on staying in the E.U. at any cost and the rise of in popularity of UKIP. It doesn't make me happy to say that.

JessM Wed 16-Jan-13 12:52:58

mm flicketyb as i have I think, mentioned before, the trouble is with most politicians today is that they are career politicians who have gone from university to westminster with very little in between. Lack of experience of managing things shows.

JessM Thu 17-Jan-13 19:14:20

Oh he has postponed the speech because of the hostage crisis. !!! shock

Ivanhoe Sat 02-Feb-13 13:01:55

David Cameron wants Europe to ditch it's social model and adopt our Anglo Saxon low income tax deregulated free market model.

Workers rights are sacrosanct in Europe. Hence Europe's regulation.

David Cameron wants Europe to ditch workers rights.

Ivanhoe Sat 02-Feb-13 13:05:18

I wouldnt give the British an in or out vote on Europe, because we largely are not educated into the ways of Europe in a positive way thanks to the negatively printed in our primarily right wing press, ie the Daily Mail and the Sun.

Any referendum on in or out in this country would be uneducated and uninformed.

MargaretX Sat 02-Feb-13 17:32:02

All Germany wants is serious banking not anglo-saxon banking. Fr Merkel want the immense profits made by computers, in a fraction of a second, to be controlled and taxed. This would make life uncomfortable for the finance sector im London.
Although Scandanavian countries do not have the Euro they would never leave the EU and attach themselves to the UK.
Judgeing by the reaction the IN/OUT question as provoked it looks as if the vote will be for IN. How can any of the manufacturing workforce vote to leave?
The farming policy did not favour the huge farms in the UK but it kept the farmers in the rest of Europe on their farms, looking after livestock and, by the way caring for the countryside. But being in Europe means making sacrifices sometimes as Germany is doing now. Perhaps if the roles were reversed Britain would leave if it had the most money and jobs, and leave the rest to fend for themselves! That would please UKIP but would be desastrous.
In this day and age we have to hang in there together!

Ivanhoe Sat 02-Feb-13 18:59:47

MargaretX, you are bang on. Germany dont want their banks deregulated as Thatcher did to ours in the 80's.

Cameron wants Europe to adopt our Anglo Saxon model which began under Thatcher in the 80s.