The reality behind the deficit cutting.

I'm not really warming to your arguments, Ivanhoe and I have never bought a Daily Mail in my life (nor even half-inched one.)

ivanhoe
I think I gather (with difficulty) that you might dress to the left rather than the right.
You don't seem to have posted on any other topic other than politics.

Are you here purely to try to convert any of us (if any) to vote for labour rather than conservative?

Myself, I follow pythagorous .
I abstain from beans!

""You don't seem to have posted on any other topic other than politics"".

This is the "Politics" category isnt it ?

gracesmum, I dont care if your warming or not to be honest.

Think you're preaching to the (mostly) converted on this forum, Ivanhoe!

Ivanhoe

I am enjoying this.

You see that's the difference between you and I.You like to label people I don't care where they come from, it's what they do that counts to me.

What is wrong in being middle class and right wing. What is wrong with being middle class and left wing. Are you seriously saying left wing supporters are all, or have to be working class. That would be very foolish but sadly a trait of a die hard partisan political supporter, which I gather you must be.

Like using the tactic of trying to make someone feel guilty about which paper they read, the other tactic for those with a lack of courage to debate use class warfare.

By the way I am not middle class I was a receptionist and a market trader during my working life. I am not interested in what you did'do as I find it irrelevant to our 'discussions'.

POGS, No, its what Government's do actually, backed up by their electorate.

Ivanhoe

Sorry I am being a bit thick. No to what? Genuinely not following your comment.

Ivanhoe your heart's in the right (or should I say Left) place and I agree with much of what you have said. I do believe that voters are not always predictatable: some very working class people vote Tory, and many middle class folks vote Labour - or they would if Labour was really Labour, which is why the Lib Dems got a lot of votes - Labour betrayed its heartland when it took on some policies of the Right.

But punishing Labour by voting Tory is a sure way of shooting yourself in the foot - however much to the Right Labour veers, they are never as Right as the Tories. We discovered this where I live in Queensland - there was a landslide to the Tories (called the LibNats here) and we are ALL suffering.

Anyway, the purpose of this waffle was to mention this article. I love that man:

www.guardian.co.uk/film/2013/feb/02/inequality-for-all-us-economy-robert-reich

POGS We can't blame the Labour government for Lehman Brothers – which is where the recent collapse all started. Indeed, selling the family silver – well, gold – was an act of wanton stupidity. Badly negotiated PFI agreements with heavily weighted risks for taxpayer money should never have been made, but note that George Osborne has been accelerating the PFI programme. Maggie Thatcher began the demise of British manufacturing, her heir, Tony Blair, continued the process and David Cameron/George Osborne aren't doing anything to help it. It is, however, much more resilient than many would believe.

Do you really want islamists to take over the world? Or let Iran and North Korea be the ones to have the nuclear power?

I don't want anybody to have nuclear weapons – not India, Pakistan, Israel, etc either – and, more importantly, I don't want anybody to use them. I think the whole idea of a nuclear deterrent is a contradiction in terms and I don't see how having a nuclear submarine constantly patrolling the Atlantic is going to help with the problem of Islamist terrorism.

Not sure I said that. I'm a great believer in defence in any shape or form. There are some nasty people out there. And I don't want them coming here.

Or taking over any other poor sods' territory for that matter

absent - I agree with you, I don't want anyone to have nuclear weapons either because of the volatile unstable climate we live in. The consequences of launching one would be dire for all nations. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world and more's the pity, more nations now seem to be acquiring them. I would love to think that campaigning for disarmament would work but it's about effective as farting against thunder. As with most issues, the people aren't really listened to and in some of the countries that have or are working on acquiring nuclear weapons, they have no voice at all.

Exactly

gracesmum, I can assure you that im right about the true reason for the deficit cuts. The Tories are a low income tax small state party.

POGS, Tory voters are responsible for the State of this country today and our decline began under Margaret Thatcher in the 80's.

Absent

No I do not 'blame' the last government for the banking crash. I do however agree with you, in this instance, that the last government had 'too light a touch' and they did court financial services at the expense of all else. I am not interested in going back to who did what, we all have our thoughts on that, it is what is happening now I am interested in.

Yes there are new PFI '2' deals being drawn up. However they are, hopefully, not going to be as financially naive as the PFI deals drawn up before. They are a scandal and even those Labour M.Ps on the Select Committee have to agree as evidence keeps being shown.

I don't agree that Cameron/Osborne are doing nothing re manufacturing. I would like a lot to be done in this area, it has to be the main concentration for any government. Let's be honest Germany is successful because it did keep manufacturing at the fore and it's work ethic is examplary.

I am not saying I have faith in in what is going on at the moment but I am saying that this continual defense of Labour and the continual attack on the Coalition is disingenuous if it is only done on partisan politics not by evidence based facts. I have plenty of time to bash the Coalition but midway through I don't know enough of the outcome to comment, other than I am not particularly happy with them either.

POGS,

""I don't agree that Cameron/Osborne are doing nothing re manufacturing. I would like a lot to be done in this area, it has to be the main concentration for any government. Let's be honest Germany is successful because it did keep manufacturing at the fore and it's work ethic is examplary""

Since the 80's and Thatcher, the British electorate have constantly voted for a right wing low waged and highly insecure free market system.

Osborne and Cameron are right wingers who care nothing for the ordinary man and woman in this country.

The right wing are all about low incomes taxes and a small State. Hence the coalitions cuts to welfare and the role of the State, and using the deficit as a cover to whittle away both the State and the welfare State.

isn't it axiomatic that for a free market to prosper, you must have high job insecurity?

"Since the '80s Thatcher, the British electorate have constantly voted for a right wing low waged and highly insecure free market system"

How do you think the free movement of labour across Europe has affected the British worker? there have been those that have been undercut by the last surge of European migrants that they have gone to the wall. This is a free market economy it goes with the territory. We now know Labour was eager to allow in the last influx straight away for it's own non alturistic reasons, even though most of Europe didn't, including Germany, could the fact that they have a somewhat more protective attitude to their own working population, be one of the many factors that contribute to their success. You can't have it both ways, you have said that you are pro Europe and unfettered immigration is inevitably going to impact on the people of this country, as a consequence it hasn't always helped our own tradespeople. Immigration has of course it's pros and cons I don't dispute that. If you saw Question Time a week or so ago you may have seen Mary Beard, the historian read out a very positive report compiled I think by the local council of Boston regarding the new incomers, which essentially said that the experience for the people of Boston, Lincs. has on the whole been very positive. You will also have seen a young woman in the audience dispute this, she was speaking for many of her fellow Bostonians, but hey what do they know they only live there!

Oh yeah and the Labour party really pulled out all the stops when it came to fighting for the Cadbury workers' rights. A quintessentially British company sold to to an indifferent American conglomerate. I believe Sarkozy said that he would not allow Danone in France to be sold off as he said something along the lines as it was regarded as part of the soul of France, well I think many British people would have felt the same affection for Cadburys. Mandleson did well on that one. A real man of the people unlike posh toffs Cameron on Osbourne we know this because he loves a bit of what he likes to call Guacamole on the side with his fish and chips! By the way before you ask, I'm not a Tory supporter, I find them less than ideal. I've voted for both main parties in my voting life. I don't know who I would vote for next time, I'm not sure it would make much difference, same meat different gravy they are all pretty disappointing it just depends on the degree of awfulness that they deliver and the conditions that prevail at the time of an election.

Well said, BAnanas. It's not as simple as you seem to think, Ivanhoe but having had my opinion rubbished by you once already, ("gracesmum, I dont care if your warming or not to be honest"). I had better just leave you to bang on. ( "You're warming......." , BTW)

BAnanas, Britain needs to be industry lead, and not market lead, even Conservative Michael Hesletine has been saying this recently.

Europe is another issue, but if I had my way we British should have gone fully into the EU and adopted the Euro, years ago, so the British people could have enjoyed the benefits of the European Social Charter.

Ivanhoe

I am sorry but you not articulating your rebuffs in a way I am particularly following. I do not mean that in a sarcastic way, I genuinely am not seeing any debate from you except for the Margaret Thatcher hang up you have, like a lot of others.

Now I respect that view but please expand your points so we can debate, or not, put a little bit more meat on the bone using current facts and situations or I for one will assume you have nothing to offer other than partisan bashing which to me shows a lack of knowledge of the real world and what is happening.