Is a child murderer vulnerable?

It's an enormously complex subject, and it's perhaps unfair to carry on speculating about it when it directly affects so many people on this forum - it must do, by the laws of statistics. I have seen more adult victims take their own lives than I have seen victims become abusers. That's the real tragedy.

I do hear what you are all saying about the official definitions of mental disorders and personality disorders, and perhaps you have professional experience of such.I suppose I am looking at the term insane loosely, as I cannot understand how any normal human being could inflict such mental and physical pain on anyone, particularly a child. Perhaps I am just naive. having said this, I have a certain amount of cognitive dissonance in wanting to see the perpetrators suffer a low and painful demise.

Slow and painful that is.
am not sure it is unfair as it is such an important issue if we are to gain understanding and help prevent it happening. Yes it's a sensitive issue ,and surely very painful for some, whose feelings I deeply respect.

Do you mean you are not sure about it? # thesarusinpainfulplace

J08 ...... I think you know what I mean.

I was responding to night owls post

Moon

Sorry cant get the hang of these icon things . Going to bed now. Thanks for the thought provoking discussion

Thought provoking discussion.... oh how I wish it was just that.

aga I share your wish that the perpetrators should die a slow and painful death. At the same time I am glad we have a justice system that does not sanction this. I have seen the damage done to victims in both a professional capacity and also a personal one - it was not me that was the victim but someone very close to me. I can honestly say it robbed this person of their childhood and is still ruining their life. I know the reasons that particular perpetrator acted as they did but it was nothing to do with mental illness or mental disorder of any kind.

I suppose when I suggested we shouldn't speculate I was thinking of glass and others who may find it difficult to see on this forum.

Sorry glass the curse of crossed posts again.

We shouldn't never stop talking about it, but just please be aware that the way some things are said do hit a raw nerve.

Of course we cannot and should not tolerate attacks on convicted criminals by other prisoners. Child murderers and sexual offenders, however loathsome their crimes, are vulnerable to attacks in prison. It wasn't long ago that a number of women had their convictions for killing their children crushed. Presumably all those who rejoice in this prisoner's murder and express the inhumane desire for his death to have been "slow and painful" would have felt the same way about those women before their convictions were overturned.

Absent - you have put what I meant much more lucidly. It's also really important to separate out how, as individuals, we would feel towards the perpetrator and how s/he should be treated by the state. It will be interesting to find out what the two 'avengers' were in prison for - dropping litter

Good point Absent

Well said absent. Hit the nail on the head.

Oppps sorry predicted text on my phone.

Absent that is bumptious twaddle.

This case is totally different to a woman being wrongly imprisoned for the death of her child. There is no dispute at all over this creature' s guilt. Or his evil cruelty.

If the state sanctions the same sort of cruelty that the perpetrator is in prison for in the first place we cannot be regarded as a civilized society. We should not rejoice in the death of this man - evil though he was - in the confines of a prison that is funded by us through our taxes. If we do we are complicit in that evil.

We should also be concerned for those who brought about his death. Their actions will have not helped them to rehabilitate from their own crimes. I worry about a prison system where it is possible for an act of murder to take place.

absent's "bumptious twaddle" is the essence of civilization. We have thankfully moved on from an eye for an eye.

If a loved one of mine were killed I would I am sure feel intemperate anger and hate towards the perpetrator; but I would expect the state to deal with him/her in a civilized fashion with a life sentence.

As soon as we have one law for good people and another for the bad we will have lost a cornerstone of society. We cannot have a situation where it is regarded as fine to kill some people, but not others.

The principle that one should not kill is basic.

JO8 - no one is regarded by the state as wrongly imprisoned to start with - at the start the system has found them guilty and they are treated as such in prison - if there for child related offences this can include having to be in solitary for their own safety and being at risk from other prisoners. But anyway, the debate is about the right to be safe whether rightly or wrongly imprisoned and the fact that we cannot allow vigilantes either in prison or outside to administer their own form of 'justice'

Deedaa I cannot feel sympathy for that man. I'm glad that he's no longer alive. The only victim was the innocent wee child.

I don't think the issue is feeling sympathy for him - its about what constitutes a civilised criminal justice system

j08 At the time these women were imprisoned no one knew they were wrong convictions. It was a year or more (several more in at least one case) that their convictions were quashed. So at the time they were in prison they were regarded by the general public and by other prisoners as being equally as guilty of wantonly killing their babies as this man was of killing his step child.

Hi everyone, could I put another view. My son was brutally murdered a few years ago, it was a totally unprovoked attack by two "yobs" just out looking for trouble. He was 17, a lovely boy and the police said nobody had a bad word to say about him, he was just starting college. Anyway, the main offender got the mandatory life sentence and the other was charged with manslaughter and guess what, yep they are both out already. What I have to say is, where is the justice, I wanted punishment, I would have liked them both to stay in prison for the rest of their lives and suffer, but not by the hands of another prisoner, I wanted real justice. The Sun newspaper phoned and asked me if I would have liked the death penalty and no I didn't, to me that would have been the easy way out. And because I said that, they didn't want to know. I just feel we do not get real justice in Britain. We protect the wrong ones, when their appeals for probation came up, they were allowed to see what my family had written about why we didn't want them released but we couldn't find out what they put because of their human rights, please tell me how that can be right or fair?
You never get over this but, I was determined to not let these murderers take over my life and I would not let them have control over me.
I am sorry if I have waffled on a bit, I just wanted to explain from someone who has gone through this heinous crime, I am sure others who have been through this might have a different view. No, he isn't a loss to society, but this shouldn't be able to happen in our prisons and we don't want, surely, to become a vigilante state.