Thatcher has died

POGS Again?

Pat Condell (@patcondell)
10/04/2013 22:45
Just checked the news. Thatcher still dead. Not much else happening. Just checked again. Yep, still dead. I’ll check again in a few minutes.

Aspen The title was inherited through his father who acquired his inheritable title at his wife's insistence.

POGS Kuwait and Saddam Hussein? Who were the supporters of and providers of arms, including chemical and biological weapons, to Saddam Hussein in the 1980s during the long Iran-Iraq War? Could it have been the British and American governments?

Eloethan I quite like that remark.

Is Pete Murray still around? #fanciedhissocksoff

This thread could be getting as boring as Pat Condell' s tweets.

Sel I do think unions have generally been a force for good.
Unions have helped saved the country from revolution. I doubt if without unionised action in the past the improvements in conditions and safety issues in what is left of our industry would not have occured.
The unions acheived these gradual changes in conditions in Britain with remarkably little disruption compared with the riots and revolutions that happened in Russia & France etc.

As to your comments about holding the "country to ransom".

Is there much difference between poorly paid miners risking health to dig coal out, and taking a stand for better pay and conditions; or as you put it "holding the country to ransom" and the previous generations of exploitation by their employers.
In times when there was no state benefit the industrialists held their workers to ransom.

Wages were poor and the owners got very rich because of this. They avoided addressing health and safety issues which might slow down production and affect their profits. If you complained you were sacked and faced destituion.
Its not surprising to me that after generations of this sort of treatment working people were not prepared to allow things to go back to how they were.

However I do agree with you that UKIP and the SWP are pretty far out.

agapanthus thank you for explaining to absent what vitriolic means. I think it was me she was addressing but I have other things to do with my evening so have only just seen it.

I wonder why people feel they can state what Mrs T thought or felt. How can any of us possible know?

The unions have done good things and bad. Surely no one would suggest that Arthur Scargill was motivated only to get a fair deal for his members when he is quoted as saying something like 'we are not looking for what we deserve but for getting as much as we can'.

I think it is fair to have a law saying a strike cannot be called unless sufficient members have voted for it. Democracy?

Movedalot - if a rule is introduced about a certain % of workers having to vote for strike action, then where does that leave local and general elections and the recent fiasco of the PCC elections? Democracy?

Did you know that up to the late sixties deep sea trawlers were often sent out in unseaworthy states and had no radio? You didn't know if the ship was lost until it failed to return. Then the Seaman's Mission would go to see the men's families, break the news and offer what support they could. When, where and how it was lost remained a mystery. Accidents on board ship (including deaths) were called acts of God so no compensation had to be paid. Any man who complained or made a fuss was blacklisted by all the trawler owners.

It was the union that fought for the men. It motivated the wives and organised high profile meetings for them with leading politicians of the day.

The trawler owners said they couldn't afford to put radios and operators on every vessel. Nor could they afford constant repairs or to pay for injury insurance. Oddly when they finally had no choice none of the companies went under. Fishing only stopped due to the Cod Wars nothing to do with the unions.

The strike actions which so damaged many people, not just those involved with heavy industry can't be compared to other elections bluebell I wasn't given the opportunity to vote for or against a strike and nor were millions of others. I make a choice whether or not to vote in the ballots you mentioned.

That's an interesting point Sel but are you then saying that if a union wants to take industrial action, everyone affected by it should have a vote about whether it should happen?

No, that would be unworkable. The strikes back pre Margaret Thatcher were numerous and for many struggling to run business or work elsewhere, caused a huge amount of hardship and distress. I don't think the unions give any thought to those they affect. I'd currently cite Bob Crow as a prime example of that mindset. Yes, he's achieved huge salaries for his members but in my eyes, the driving force is greed not concern for the workforce. He does wrap things up with that label though.

Of course Sel is correct in saying that ballots should be held for strike action. This should have been in place many decades ago. And I've said before, if it hadnt been for Callaghan and his cronies sabotaging In Place of Strife, we would have been spared the Winter of Discontent. I spent more hours than I care to remember in the Women's Section opposing male dinosaurs, some of them from the unions, some not. But, it was difficult for a number of reasons for Labour Party members to defeat the undemocratic systems of some unions, partly because our energies were diverted by trying to also defeat the entryists of the Militant Tendency.

I don't think anyone here is saying Unions good, non Unions bad, but I think those who look to the actions of some of the TU dinosaurs of past and assume that all that unions are concerned about is self interest, need to take a more nuanced position and realise why and how the events of 1979 happened.

Mice Bob Crow is current

Much as I can understand if this has been your world then that's the way you see it, there is another side where unions are not held in such high esteem.

Vampirequeen - my brother was a merchant seaman for 30 years. He told me that it was a well known fact that the shipping companies would make changes when they knew that the 'ringleaders'- i.e. union activists
would not be able to attend meetings because they were on 'deep sea'
voyages.
He didn't have much time for the Seaman's Union , finding it very ineffective, but they did gradually get some safety rules introduced.
It was obviously hard to get many members to meetings, as they were, by the very nature of their job, likely to be offshore.

Few improvements to the health and safety of employees have been made without long campaigns by unions. Profit for shareholders is the first objective of most companies.

I'm well aware if that, Sel! I haven't lived in a bubble all my life.
And I'm no supporter of Bob Crow. Neither did I support any undemocratic or gender biased policies or behaviour in any union whatsoever.

So I really cannot understand why you say 'in your world' ...' unions are held in high esteem'.

What I do hold in high esteem are the actions of those unions who have stood up for exploited workers, promoted proper Heath and safety action, opposed sexism and racism, campaigned for pension rights and supported the unfairly victimised and bullied and those dismissed for no reason. Vampirequeen has given an excellent example above.

Please don't assume that because someone is on the left and has been active in politics and the unions, that they are incapable of independent thought and unthinkingly support everything that every union does or says.

Mice I certainly don't assume that although I have met many who are Equally don't assume that everyone on the right is incapable of understanding the issues unions were formed to fight for and the need for them, then. I would still maintain that those days, in this country are long gone.

I can't remember when postal strike ballots were introduced but that is the law now and has been for a while. With a few caveats, I am in favour of that position. Of course there have been union excesses in the past but they were as nothing to the excesses of rampant capitalism in the 19th and early 20th century. But amongst all those excesses were wonderful examples - Cadbury, Salt, Fry, Rowntree, Shaftesbury so I don't condemn all capitalists and I think it's equally simplistic to condemn all unions. As for Bob Crow, well there are never any H&S issues with the railways now are there? Oh no, no train crashes due to inadequate maintenance - no, of course not.

That is interesting, Sel. Are you saying that all companies now promote the health and safety of their employees without any pressure at all being put on them? Or does the pressure come from a different direction?

H & S on the railways would be governed by Office of Rail Regulation - I was going to say the Health & Safety Executive but thought I'd better Google first

Movedalot When I am specifically replying to something a particular person has posted, I invariably address that person. So no, I wasn't specifically replying to you when I said something about not noticing anything that struck me as particularly vitriolic. I can't remember what it is that you said but lots of comments about hatred and vitriol have been posted by various people. I didn't in fact need agapanthus to explain the meaning of vitriolic and I am very surprised that someone who "doesn't do sarcasm" should make such a comment.

Yes Greatnan every business has to comply with Health & Safety Regs. My son works for a large company in sustainability, he wanted surplus wood to be used to make picnic benches for the workmen to use at lunchtime in the summer. The men were happy to do it in their own time, H & S stopped it as the benches would be unsafe, the men might fall backwards

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Exactly Sel (Re; Bob Crow) The man is so powerful he can bring the country to a standstill and uses nasty little blackmailing tactics in order to meet the unreasonable demands of his members.

Greatnan I think you will find that these days most employers take the Health and Safety of their employees very seriously indeed and certainly don't need a union to tell them how to do it.