Child Bride dies

Iam64 - you sum up my own ambivalence about 'covered up' women very well. Like most of us, I believe women should be free to choose their own style of clothing, but I question how free these women are to make their own decisions. There are health implications when women (and especially children) do not have exposure to sunlight. There are risks involved in loss of peripheral vision. Even in Britain, there are pressures on women who fail to conform to the unreasonable rules.

Thank you for the link, bags - we are told that the dress rules for women are not actually laid down in the Koran so it is not a question of religious freedom.

Thanks for that - thatbags. I couldn't open the link but appreciated the summary. Micelf, thanks for your posts - this is an interesting discussion and not an easy one to have without offending each other, but we seem to be managing that.

FGM and forced marriage are issues I have no difficulty making up my mind on - it's simply wrong. In the case of FGM, it's illegal child abuse if it takes place in the UK, or a UK child is taken abroad for the procedure. I understand those who are concerned about the implications of prosecuting parents, the implications for the children and wider family. Prosecutions of parents who neglect or abuse their children do take place. Why has FGM been put in a different category.

20 years ago there was a review of FGM in the town I worked in. The conclusion was that prosecution would alienate those seeking asylum. It recommended that professionals in health/social work should work with the communities to influence change. 20 years on, no change has taken place and we have an increasing number of immigrants/asylum seekers from countries where FGM is part of life. As others have said, changing traditions/beliefs etc is a very long term project. My belief is these little girls shouldn't have to wait for persuasion to take effect.

I try to respect the customs of people who come and live in the UK but I am uncomfortable about the veil/burkha. I can't get beyond seeing it as a symbol of oppression. The implication that women are must be covered or men will lose control. I do not feel it's appropriate for women to give evidence in court with their face covered.

I've just skimmed through what I've written and realise I sound a bit like a Daily Mail column, for which I apologise. It's like that Bob Dylan line ' yes I'm liberal and to a degree, I want everybody to be free.... '

Here are the first two paragraphs of the NSs statement for anyone who doesn't want to go and read the whole thing (though I heartily recommend it):

"The National Secular Society has serious concerns about the wearing of the burka (full veil with face covering) or niqab (face covering), relative to their symbolic role and the subjugation of women; their making an issue of female gender and sexuality; their potential to cover-up evidence of abuse; and their potential to hinder a woman’s communicative abilities and integration within civil society.
These concerns notwithstanding, the NSS opposes any attempt to legally ban the burka or niqab. We do so on two grounds of principle: a woman’s right to choose what she wears, i.e. her right to free expression; and her right to religious freedom."

Here you will find the position statement of the British National Secular Society on burkas in Britain.

If you enter "burka" in their wesite search box you'll get many pages of links to discussions about burkas and the wearing and/or banning of them. It must cover every aspect of the issue.

I am having trouble posting on GN, things double up and won't post.

I will add when someone says they feel uncomfortable when they see women wearing the burka people get on their high horses. The new PM of Australia (Tony Abbott) said he was uncomfortable with the burka. There was the usual angry backlash, but what about the women who are forced to cover up, do these angry culture champions ever think of them.

Bez any of the people involved are charged.
Bez, anyone involved are charged. Child brides being given visas to enter Australia should be stopped, some are as young as 17 and are marrying men in their 50s.

I can't read some of these stories and the sad thing the children's mothers are just as involved in a lot of cases. Just disgusting!

Completely unforgivable and utterly heartbreaking, Sadly another example, extreme maybe, of the little value placed on females and I would suggest this is because female strength is actually feared by many men. How many cases of death or severe injury do we not hear of? Girls who are raped often survive terrible damage which makes them unable to conceive or carry a baby to term. They are then discarded as being barren. This makes me weep, how can this be allowed? If girls menstruated oil, I'm sure military force would be used against their attackers.
Nothing and nobody can offer any justification for such barbarity.

Going there now. Been working all day and just catching up.

Can WE as gransnet do anything you think. I'd be willing to do anything I could as I think it is the most abominable practice!

I sent the photo to thatbags who has posted on the thread marked FGM.

It's there already, Galen. FGM Knives.

Miceself I think it would be educational. I don't think I can do it (technophobe, that's me) but would be good if someone could!

I wonder if Childline could set up a dedicated phone line for girls who had suffered, or were threatened with FGM? Or somebody like Joanna Lumley to arouse interest as she did for the Ghurkas.

It is legalised paedophilia.

Faye which people are jailed - parents or the perpetrator etc.

Definitely an Australian report about a woman being whipped in Sudan not Australia baggy. Whipping does not happen here, nor does Sharia law.

FGM is illegal in Australia and people are charged and jailed for this heinous crime.

Hear hear BAnanas What can we do about it? Publicity, ensuring that no girls in this country suffer (and that involves all this who work with young and teenage girls of the relevant ethnic background) and speaking up. Has it ever been discussed by the WI at their AGM for instance ? They saw Tony Blair off and although I am not a member I believe that they have more to them than jam and Jerusalem.

This is a thread that will run and run, it's clear we all feel very anti FGM it should not have any place in our society and and in an ideal world it wouldn't have a place in anyone else's either. What is it that these people fear or dare I say even hate about their female counterparts so much so that they could contemplate causing them such extreme physical pain.

I take your point MiceElf about educating the girls who may be subjected to this practice but they still have to live with families, which will undoubtedly be run by the male members. We all know of some of the dire consequences girls from certain backgrounds have experienced when they have tried to live a western lifestyle, not even an outrageous one, just wanting an education, they have in the worst case scenarios been killed by fathers, brothers and uncles.

We are a country that has had wave upon wave of incomers over the centuries, and all have brought different ways and customs but I think it's fair to say that after a generation or two, possibly sooner most have become British with foreign roots. I know that was how it was for my father and his siblings, my grandfather was an immigrant but married a British woman. My father, his sisters and brother were comfortably able to identify with both cultures but living here the British side would be at the fore. Possibly being only half and half makes the whole process easier. Also when previous generations made the transition to another country, the separation from their mother country was more absolute when the only form of communication with your relatives was a letter. People were not able to float backwards and forwards I know my father and his siblings never got to meet their paternal grandparents, foreign travel wasn't a possibility for the masses before the war.

We now live in age where the internet and travel means new immigrants never really have to "leave" their place of birth and in some cultures they appear rooted and affiliated to the old country. It also appears to me where we had immigrants who would have at least taken on some aspects of their adopted country, certain communities are bucking that trend and returning to cultural roots that their parents/grandparents tried to throw off. Yes I concede there are examples of ex pat communities down in say certain parts of Spain who do very little to assimilate with the Spanish, more fool them, it doesn't usually mean however that the female members of those communities are living in some sort of purdah which is how I perceive some women from certain communities here live. Again expecting women to live an isolated existence in a foreign land is yet another example of control. How to overcome a mindset that wishes to wield absolute power over the female members of their society can probably only happen with enormous interference from the state which would no doubt drive a further wedge into communities who do not look upon their parent country favourably.

Yes I agree - we have a law in this country that says it is illegal to perform this procedure. So let's see some prosecutions of the practitioners.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/sep/07/female-genital-mutilation-tradition-somalia

I think Mice is right. This is really about education. Mothers and grandmothers must be encouraged to recognise this practice for what it is - a vile assault on a defenceless child. The Guardian recently had an article in which a grandmother who'd undergone FGM and who'd agreed to the procedure being carried out on her own children, finally found the courage to say that her grandchildren should not be mutilated in this horrific way.

Change through education may take some time. In the interim, I think the suggestion that someone on GN made that the person who performs the FGM should be charged is a good one - I would imagine young women would probably be very reluctant to get a parent into trouble. And if there were an anonymous "hotline" on which the young women involved or anybody else could report a possible pending FGM procedure, perhaps that would help too.

Have pm-ed you, mice.

I deeply sympathise Sunseeker. It's hard to know what any of us in the west can do. But I suppose as mainly retired people we could make sure we thoroughly research charities which campaign and actively work to eliminate this practice.

Those who are still in employment and have contact with girls and women from these societies need to be active in their professional associations, and those who have access to media need to keep the matters firmly in the public consciousness.

And we all need to raise the matter with our MPs.

BTW I can't post pictures from my old iPad but if anyone feels that it might be educative to see an FGM knife I can send a photo to them by email to post on here.

I take your point MiceElf and I agree education is the way forward, but how do we ensure that children (male and female) get that education. If more aid went direct to schools, clinics etc. instead of being handed to a government it might make a difference.

It's just that I get so angry when I read about child marriages, FGM etc. that the logical side of my brain gets shouted down by the side that wants to cut out the hearts of the people responsible. (Not very Christian of me I know).

I only wish I could believe that would happen, Sunseeker. I don't know if you have read my post above about my experience in Africa?

Changing cultural practices has to come from within the community itself. Imposition from western or wealthy governments will simply cause resentment and drive the practice even more to secrecy.

One way to ensure the west does everything it can to etadicate this, is to educate girls from those countries who are resident here and make aid contingent on ensuring girls' education. Women need to train as doctors and nurses and teachers and community leaders. It will be hard and difficult but progress can be made if there is reasonably stable government in place. Kenya is a case in point. But where you have a failed state such as the Sudan or Somalia it becomes infinitely difficult.

It's difficult to draw a parallel but imagine if an Eastern bloc country declared that all women in Britain were oppressed and must henceforth wear boiler suits and flat boots. Not a good example, admittedly, but you can see how resentment and the idea of interference would make change even harder.

bags I think the article you are referring to was published in an Australian paper but the woman in question lives in the Sudan.

Isn't it about time that western governments tackle these questions head on. Tell the countries who impose FGM, child marriages, whipping etc. that they must stop these barbaric practices. I think if enough of the G8 countries presented a united front against these practices it could have the desired effect.