Mark Duggan

devils advocate , they probably don"t know any better !
I feel shame for them really !

Hello thatbags, haven't seen you on here for some time!

Why would a person who is white, well educated, not impoverished and with standards be pleased to have someone like Mark Duggan for a son?
I can easily believe that his family, from a completely different background, might be more accepting of him.

I would not feel comfortable living in a society where the police can shoot an unarmed person dead, lie about it and get away with it because the person they shot is in a gang/leading a life style most of us would disapprove of. It's to do with general standards.

Incidentally, I cannot imagine a circumstance where I would disown one of my children or grandchildren no matter how appalled I was at what they had done but I remain to be tested.

I acknowledge that I am being simplistic and I am copying this from a Facebook site named "Stop destroying our Armed Forces but:- a policeman kills an unarmed man, who may had a gun earlier and was holding a mobile phone, but it's judged to be a lawful killing. A Marine kills an armed insurgent who may have been holding a grenade, and gets life.
I am sure I am missing something.

I still haven't been tested that far either (and hope I never shall be, nor you), petallus, but I can only speak for how I feel now. Who knows what might change that in some circumstances? In the meantime I'm not ashamed of thinking that getting hold of a gun in order to shoot someone because one is involved in gang culture is uncivilised, whatever the reasons justifications for such behaviour.

Re the Duggan story. He and the police involved had a jury look at the evidence (which the rest of us haven't seen). The jury, no doubt advised of the law in such a case by the judge, concluded that it was a lawful killing. The family, so I understand, are going to appeal, as is presumably their right. Rule of law.

I believe white, well educated, not impoverished people have been known to go astray of the law quite often, by the way.

brendawymms, I agree that something seems to be missing when the two cases are juxtaposed in a simple way like that. I suggest that the missing thing is evidence that we know nothing about. Perhaps that's a simplistic view too.

BTW, the colour of Duggan's skin had not entered my consciousness in any way until you mentioned it, petallus. It's not something that I would regard as mattering in this case or any other though I am aware that people speak of police colour prejudice.

What fascinated me was a comment by an anonymous head of luxury good "services" with branches all over Europe ,a glamorous wife , luxury home in the Home Counties and connections with pop stars who sai d basically Duggan was out of his depth. Was he trying to play with the big boys? And didn't make it?

The colour of a persons skin is of no importance to me what so ever.

We are all brothers and sisters under the skin and deserve our place in the sun .

My brother married a black woman and they now have a beautiful mixed race child .
She is a delight !

jingle You can't just fire guns over someone's head in the hope that they will put their hands up. It's not just that London is not Laramie, but modern weapons have phenomenal fire power and your chances of wounding or killing a civilian who is not involved in the whole thing – and who you may not even be able to see – are quite high.

Also, if the suspect is armed, his kneejerk reaction would be to return fire, I'd have thought!

Be bloody sight better than aiming at him.

Jingle, I agree that this man lost his life. Of course, that is tragic. I confess, I'd have been more upset if one or more of the firearms officers had died, as a result of hesitating when they believed they were facing death.
We ask a lot of our police officers. They don't always achieve the high standards we set for them. I agree with Ana, if the suspect is believed to be armed, who can criticise a policeman for firing?
The police involved in this incident would have been aware that MD was a gang member, and that he was carrying a weapon. I can't imagine how we expect people to go into that kind of situation, take split second decisions and then be blamed, even when a Jury has found it was not an illegal killing.

I quite agree, Iam64.

"Three days after the shooting, on 7 August, after Tottenham had burned and nearby Wood Green had been ransacked, the armed officers were allowed to sit together in a room at Leman Street station in east London for eight hours and write their full statements after conferring."

That's not good.

"On the evening of the shooting, the Met told the IPCC Duggan had fired at officers. The IPCC made that public to journalists, wrongly giving the impression Duggan had been killed after firing at police, without attributing the claim to the Met. One of the officers who had surrounded Duggan had indeed been hit by a bullet, which had lodged in his radio. However, it had not been fired by Duggan but by V53, before it passed through the suspect's arm and hit the officer."

Doesn't really give you a lot of faith in the Met police.

It is sad that a young man lost his life unnecessarily. I do not know his story & how he became embroiled in gun crime and I certainly do not condone it. I do believe that if you run with weapons you must expect you may die by them..a risk you take. No idea if this man had the capacity to appreciate that.

The anger, at the police and the jury verdict, by the family is understandable. To be fair they have said they do not wish to see any violence or further death or harm as a result of the outcome.

If he had been a victim of a gang shooting or had been the person shooting the fatal bullet the media and public would be calling for more police action.

When police have been killed by criminals the public/media have tended to be sympathetic & supportive of the police.

The great British public appear to be a fickle lot!

I do support the need for speedier inquiries and investigations into any deaths either in police custody or as a result of police shootings. We need to maintain confidence in our police to maintain law and order and that would help!

Wiki lists the names of Police Officers 'Killed in line of duty as a direct result of a crime or while attempting to stop or solve a specific criminal act' since 1900.

There are 248 names.

70 of them were shot.

I'm not aware of any riots being caused as a result of a Police Officer's death. I don't believe that the families of Police Offiicers killed on duty can subsequently sue the murderer or the murderer's estate.

Says it all, really, doesn't it, notso?

I thought the same thatbags.

Very well said.

Very sad for the family that this young man got sucked into gang culture and then, as a result, was accidentally shot. Maybe vest videos would help the problem that the police have tended to close ranks and consequently diminish our trust in them. They mishandled the immediate aftermath of this, and the shooting of the Brazilian man.
There have also been many "deaths in custody" over the years that were probably the result of brutality in the cells.
However, making Duggan into a hero or a martyr by holding vigils etc is inappropriate.
I do think the police have improved their standards a lot in the last 40 years, but there is still room for improvement.
American cop etc shows tend to create a very false view of shooting jings.
And we should be glad there is so little of it here. I remember seeing a "role of honour" in Sacramento once - a dozen police shot a year (in the State of California I think not the city)

I've just heard on the news that there may be a recommendation that the police should be more sensitive and courteous re stop and search.
Sort of "Excuse me Sir, I believe you may possibly be carrying a gun. Would you please be so kind as to clarify this?"

Nfk Stop & Search is probably not used for suspected armed criminals but more for suspicion of drug/petty crime . I know several black men who have been stopped and searched on frequent occasions. They are not criminals. It is always embarrassing and distressing. On a number of occasions the attitude of some of the police was inappropriate. I know loads more white men than black but none of the white men I know have ever been stopped and searched, except my brother when he was a teenager and was hanging out in a mixed group.

My husband has always had many contacts in the shooting world, from Olympic medallists to Servicemen. They are all unanimous in saying that shooting to disarm is a myth. Shooting to kill is the only sure way to stop somebody.
I was rather disturbed by the bit of film I saw of the shooting because it seemed quite a busy street to start shooting in. It wouldn't have needed much to go wrong and there would have been innocent casualties.