In praise of Iain Duncan Smith's Welfare Reforms

DJ

I can keep going around in a circle with you all night.

You asked me why I thought the 'Labour Party' had the edge on hypocrisy. So I answered your ruddy question.

I did not say it was a myth Labour built schools and hospitals. I implied it was a myth they worked wonders and tried to point out we are still paying handsomely for having PFI contracts and they have created some serious issues which will manifest for years but Labour brush that fact under the carpet.

You are doing an Ivanhoe and having selective amnesia when it comes to Labour. The Bullingdon Club is a total red herring that Labour cling on to try and differentiate themselves from the Tories. It's a spin doctors wet dream for PR. Labour MP's and front benches have a lot of very wealthy, public school, good social /family connections yet they want the public to believe they are working class. Rubbish.

I have no idea why you hark on about your coming from a mining, working class background. It has little relevance to me. My neighbour was a pit deputy and my other neighbour recently lost his job at Dawmill Colliery, so what???

If you think all Tories are toffs does that mean I have to think all Labour supporters are flat cap and whippet brigade. That belongs in the dark ages or to those who have practically been politically brain washed.

My one granddad was a barber and the other a foundry man.
My father only went to grammar school because he pased the entrance exam. He then wasn't allowed to go as my grandparents couldn't afford the school cap, it was bought for him by the headmaster.
He got a scholarship to Birmingham university and qualified as Dr. He had to buy his general practice after his discharge from the army and we were very poor.
My mothers father left school at 14 and learned foundry casting. He worked in a foundry until his retirement. He ended up as foreman and lecturer at college on foundry techniques. My mother trained as an infants teacher.
Therefore I can hardly say I come from a posh background!
I have and will vote Tory

I do not come from a mining, working class background, POGS, and I never said I did. Perhaps you ought to read more carefully. I said that MPs who represent this area do.

Miliband went to comprehensive school, then Oxford and the LSE. Chuka Umunna went to a state primary school, Manchester University and then got an MA at Nottingham. Harriet Harman went to York University. The Benns are well known for going to state schools. So no, they are not all from the same background, which is what you imply.

I do not have selective amnesia as far as Labour are concerned. I have never voted for Tony Blair's labour party, much to the disgust of many of my family, as it really wasn't socialist. However, I object to people who will condemn the Labour party while not seeing what the Tories are doing to this country and to our NHS, selling it to their cronies.

That is another question: should people who can well afford private education for their offspring take up state school places in our overcrowded schools? There is no reason they should not of course, as they pay their taxes like anyone else, (presumably?) but when resources are stretched would it be reasonable to expect them to use their considerable wealth and opt out?

Of course, they can also afford to live in the 'best' areas and attend 'better' state schools rather than actual 'bog-standard comprehensives' (quote).

Is the fact that HH went to York University (after St Paul's) supposed to make her more like the rest of us? I think not. It is one of the Russell group and you make it sound like a 'bog-standard' poly, DJ!

I try to be open-minded and cannot stand party dogma.

A lot of the rot started under New Labour. It was Peter Mandelson who said they were 'relaxed about people getting filthy rich'. And, by golly, they certainly did! Bankers' bonuses, PFIs, expensive wars, you name it, and cronyism was rife under the richest warmongering bastard of all, Tony Blair. So I can understand why you thought they were not for you, DJ.

But Old Labour had made such a mess of everything that even my dear Dad, a staunch Party member, resigned in disgust after much deliberation.

My MIL always said that after a Labour government the country needed two terms of Conservative government to put it back on its feet and redeem the mess Labour left behind.

My father was a Victorian and my MIL was born in the early 1900s so both had seen a lot of change and were articulate, thinking people although not University educated.

I think you are being a bit silly, rose, to suggest that people who have money should not send their children to state schools if they can afford to go private. Personally, I think that private/public schools should be done away with, along with free schools that take money away from the state schools. If everybody had to send their children to state schools, the whole system would be better.

Tony Blair was not, and is still not, the richest politician of them all, rose. He is 14th, with 3 other Labour politicians ahead of him, who are all Lords.
The rest are Torys, five of them in the cabinet.

Nit-picking now, durhamjen. Blair may not be the richest, technically, but he's certainly become rich by being the biggest hypocrite of all time.

Sorry, why is it nit-picking?
Rose said he was the richest; I am just showing he isn't and that others are just as hypocritical as he is. I've never voted for him, unlike some tories and liberals that I know.
He's become rich by selling his knowledge, and conning other rich people. He was always good at that, but then so are Jeremy Hunt and Grant Shapps. Cameron is the biggest hypocrit when you consider his dad made his money by charging people for setting up offshore accounts for them.

I meant richest Labour politician - should have clarified that. So there are 3 other Labour politicians who are even richer? have they no principles?

I was merely asking why, if you are very rich, you would not buy the best education possible for your child, thus relieving the tax payer of the cost of educating them and consequently providing more of the stretched resources for those who cannot afford to pay. I do not think that is silly in the slightest. I would not use my child as a political tool and send them to a 'bog-standard comprehensive' if I could afford to do otherwise. Even in communist countries the 'political elite' send their children to top schools, often in Britain!
Of course, in communism all are equal but some are more equal than others.
I would disagree that the whole system of education would be better if public or private schools were done away with. That is a scary prospect indeed if your only choice is a comprehensive in special measures. Of course, the political elite would live in much posher areas and if necessary bus their children to the best schools, having manoeuvred their way to a place for their child.

I would not call anyone silly even if I disagreed with them, nor even misguided. I try to see another's point even if I would argue against it. But I hope that I am fair-minded.

So you hope you are fairminded, but you do not think labour politicians should be rich.
The ones who are richer than Blair are all in the House of Lords and made their money in business before becoming Lords.
Lord Sainsbury is not allowed to have money because he supports the Labour Party, is that right? Not very fairminded of you.
I do not think you can accuse Tony Benn of sacrificing his children's education by sending them to bog-standard comprehensives. I wish all politicians would be as concerned as he was about the state of the comprehensive.
If everyone paid the taxes they owed, the education system would not be in the state it is in. We could have lots more teachers and equipment in state schools, so rich people would not need to pay more for their children to have a privileged education. They would be able to see that every child got an equal chance at a good education in state schools.

DJ

The point is Labour use class warfare to deceive the public into thinking the Labour Party is ' for the working man'. The Tory Toffs don't understand you because they are all wealthy, with wealthy mates, public school boys and sons and daughters of Lords and Ladies. Not us, vote for us we are nothing like the nasty party. Bull!

The hypocrisy is astounding.

Harriet Harman.

Went to a Russell Group University, she went to St Paul's private school, the same as George Osborne ???. Her aunt is The Countess of Longford.Her cousins are Lady Antonia Fraser and Lady Rachel Billington. She owns high value properties.

Her hypocrisy over the 'all women short lists' is well known, very good for hubby Jack Dromey. There good but only when it suits me brigade. Her connections to the Paedophile Information Exchange and the National Council for Civil Liberties left a nasty taste in the mouth. Even the odius Labour MP Tom Watson asked for an investigation into PIE.

Tristrum Hunt.

His real name is the Honourable Tristram Julian William Hunt. Son of Lord Hunt of Chesterton. He was privately educated and went to University College School, part of the Eton Group of 12 Independent schools, which make up the most elite in the country. Trinity College Cambridge.

He is a hypocrite for saying teachers should be qualified when he himself teaches/taught in school whilst NOT being a trained teacher himself.

Fiona Mactaggart.

Cheltenham Ladies College, Kings College. Her father is Sir Ian Mactaggart She inherited one fifth of her father's £6.5 million pound estate. She owns homes in London, Slough and the I.O.W.

Ed Balls

Started in a state school but then attended the prestigious, private school, Nottingham High. Same school as Kenneth Clark?? Keble Oxford and Harvard.

Could go on and on, Multi millionairess Margaret Hodge. Multi millionaire Shaun Woodward, Multi millionaire Job Cruddas, Multi millionaire. Tom Baldwin Multi millionaire. Michael Meacher, he rants on about the bedroom tax. He owns 9 properties some he rents out. etc. etc.

No I'm sorry but you can't call the Tories hypocrites because they don't try to make out they do not have some wealthy, well educated MP's. They do not try to make out they are something they are not.

It isn't the fact anybody thinks Labour have no right to be rich or well educated but why do they stupidly use class warfare when the make up of the Labour Party is no different to the Tories in many ways.

As for Blair. You'll never know what wealth that man has.

So are you saying POGS that nobody is allowed to become a socialist out of conviction or principle?
If you come from a family that has money, are educated at an independent school, go to a "top" university, then is it by definition hypocritical to become a Labour MP or to vote Labour ?
Are working-class Conservatives similarly hypocritical?
Should the great reformers like the Earl of Shaftesbury not have bothered with welfare reforms on Victorian child labour?
That sounds like a very sad world to me.

Whatever their background it is true that, yet again, Labour made a balls-up of the ecomony.

Mamie

Absolutely not!

You are missing my point or I am not explaining myself well.

It is the fact that Labour continually use class warfare as their mantra, trying to say Labour are not like the Conservatives. 'We aren't like them, we aren't posh' 'We aren't like them with their wealthy mates' 'We aren't like them, we understand the lives of the working man, how can the posh boys know what you are going through, in THEIR million pound homes'

This all started when I was asked why I called Labour hypocrites and I am stating why.

I detest the use of class warfare. It is puerile and is used when you have nothing progressive to say. It is a method of differentiating between the two parties that has little relevance in today's society.

Contrary to what you have assumed I do not care who is privately educated, I don't think it matters. I don't understand why those who have had a private education elect to sneer at or try to distance themselves in their line of thought private education belongs to toffs and that is a Conservative domain and there for must be a factor why you shouldn't vote Conservative. It's ridiculous.

I do not care what social background a person comes from. Labour do. They refer to the Conservatives as the party of the wealthy and social snobs. Labour know only too well they have exactly the same Lords, Ladies, MP's, backers in their ranks but they use class to differentiate their party from the Conservatives. It doesn't fool anybody it just shows rank hypocrisy.

It is a good thing that parliament has MP's from all backgrounds, I celebrate that fact.

What does class warfare and inverted snobbery used by Labour mean, the desire for a parliament of MP's who had to attend state school only. A parliament that has MP's that earn the minimum wage and live in social housing. Of course not that is a totally ridiculous thing to say. So why is class, wealth or social background used by Labour in such a crass way?

You don't have to be from any social background or education system to have a conviction or be principled surely. You mention the likes of Lord Salisbury. If he was in parliament today he would be called a toff and public school boy who doesn't have a clue how the other half lives. He would be sneered at by the Labour front benches, the BBC and the left wing press. Not because of his deeds or actions but because of his class and background which Labour abhor in today's society.

That is a sad world and that is what we live in today.

It is inverted snobbery to claim that "I am better than you because I am not posh" - particularly when you come from a privileged background and chose to join the ranks of Labour, not being "born into it" and to use it as a canvassing strategy is cynical hypocracy.

A good political policy that benefits the vulnerable is good for the whole country, toffs as well as plebs, and all in between, and that should be reflected in their campaigning. It might even get them more votes from those who are put off by the false "humility" bandied about.

"I'm ever so 'umble!"

True, POGS, and Labour do not seem to have anything positive to offer any more so resort to scoring an own goal.

I thought you might not have meant that POGS, but I honestly couldn't see what the fact that Harriet Harman's aunt (the daughter of an eye surgeon) was married to Lord Longford had to do with anything. Similarly I don't see what Tristram Hunt's background has to so with anything either. (Also, just as a point of information he was not employed to teach in any school. As a visiting academic he has done some specialist lessons with the school's own teachers. Good secondary schools bring in additional experts, it has nothing to do with employing unqualified teachers to teach full time. There is a difference.)
As far as I know Fiona MacTaggart is a hardworking and well-respected MP. What does her father's money have to do with that?
Do we have any evidence that the people you list have used their background as a canvassing strategy?
I do remember Nadine Dorries talking about posh boys who haven't a clue though.
What I do see and hear in British politics is the constant trivialisation of serious messages by a lightweight and vacuous media.

Elegran yes Uriah!

I don't remember hearing much about class warfare from Labour politicians though much more of the clichéed old mantra of 'hard working families' from both government and opposition and 'the squeezed middle' from Ed Milliband. I think you are beating a worn-out drum, Pogs.

I don't remember hearing much about class warfare from Labour politicians though much more of the clichéed old mantra of 'hard working families' from both government and opposition and 'the squeezed middle' from Ed Milliband. I think you are beating a worn-out drum, Pogs.

I don't remember hearing much about class warfare from Labour politicians though much more of the clichéed old mantra of 'hard working families' from both government and opposition and 'the squeezed middle' from Ed Milliband. I think you are beating a worn-out drum, Pogs.

Mamie

I'm sorry but your last post in standing up for those I mentioned is absolutely the right thing to do.

It does NOT matter a hoot what their background is, nor their wealth or eduacation, so class warfare if and when it is used is a crass, puerile worthless tactic that has had it's sell by date. I agree. That is what I have repeatedly said. So why does Labour keep using class in the obvious way it does.

As for Nadine Dorries she is just as bad, she uses class for self promotion in my opinion but then again I lost respect for her a little while ago to be honest.

Anno

I know you have opposite views on politics to myself but honestly if you have never heard
Labour MP's sneering at the 'Tory Toffs'. ''Upper class Twits' etc. etc.then I have to believe what you say, I suppose. Might I suggest you watch BBC Parliament it is a mantra from the opposition benches and I think they are beating a worn out drum to be honest.

As for your comment that I am personaly beating a worn out drum, I couldn't agree more. I keep getting posters asking me to answer a question I thought I had made perfectly clear where I stood, it would be very rude to ignore them, wouldn't it?

www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/05/21/iain-duncan-smith-continues-to-hide-reports-showing-failure

Stll hiding the facts from the public. Another man with no shame.