I'm tempted by Nigel Farage !

I agree with you entirely. I don't think many people, or UKIP for that matter have a problem with immigration as such and are aware that it is necessary for the Country. The problem is with the numbers involved. Open borders within Europe means that we have absolutely no control of these numbers. If this was 'The United States of Europe', which is the ultimate aim, all States would have an equal standard of living and an equal benefits system, Then the movement of labour would be purely on demand of skills and would work both ways. For this to happen our standard of living has to fall, while those of Eastern Europe have to rise. They will meet somewhere in the middle. It may take a while, but I am quite sure it is the ultimate aim. I wonder how 'The United States of Europe' will welcome immigration from non-member countries. We are experiencing the problems faced before America became United. that ended in civil war.

JessM

I would like to think that the majority of people didn't have a negative image of immigration. The problem arose when Labour let so many new people into Britain in short space of time. When people feel displaced (and many immigrants who have been in Britain for many years have made the same complaints against the large numbers recently) with either finding work, somewhere to live, access to healthcare then complaints about immigration become inevitable. Wasn't there something in the news a while ago that a lot of Polish people went back to Poland as the standard of living in Britain had fallen so much?

frontlinefirst.rcn.org.uk/sites/frontlinefirst/index.php/blog/entry/more-than-just-a-number-reckless-policy-draining-nhs-of-experience/

You might find this interesting.

The higher graded ones that I know have all had the option of staying in the same position with lower grading and pay, or working longer hours for the same grade and pay. They have all had to re-apply for their own jobs, therefore starting a new contract. Those that I know personally are in the South, but I think it is a countrywide policy. They have told me that this is widespread throughout even the lower grades.

Experigran I agree that nurses could be managed better. The fact that they consistently have one of the highest rates of sickness absence and staff turnover tells us something about both morale and the quality of management.
I also think there is no effort made at all to encourage british kids to go into nursing. (unlike teaching where huge efforts have been made)
However I also wonder whether your statement that "all have had to downgrade" etc, is a bit sweeping. Every nurse in NHS England, Scotland and Wales????

If there is a shortage of qualified nurses they should take more care of the ones they already have. Morale of nurses in the NHS is at an all time low, that applies to those from other countries as well of those that were born and gained their qualifications here. All have had to downgrade in order to stay in the jobs they have, taking large pay cuts, or stay on the same job, grade and pay, but work 12 hour shifts and be on call at weekends. They are leaving their jobs in droves.

Quite diverse links... The first one highlights why the doors were opened wide to EU immigrants - the economy was booming and there were real labour shortages. The one about the incentives does highlight that these payments were only available via job centres for hard to fill vacancies. There are still hard to fill vacancies in many sectors and parts of the country despite the economic downturn as we have discussed about (agriculture, nursing). Even in areas like education it can be incredibly difficult finding, for example, secondary maths teachers to work in unappealing schools.
America is built on immigration. I think their problems are with illegal immigration from central America and that those people will be exploited, as are illegal immigrants in many countries.
I think it is a pity that the public image of immigration is so negative, when there are so many positives about it.

From the select committee in Parliament: www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/8207.htm

This highlights what could be presenting some of the major problems Britain faces with job shortages www.ukimmigrationbarristers.com/blog/the-bribe-of-brussels-uk-companies-offered-1000-in-cash-by-brussels-to-employ-foreign-workers/

This could be why companies are very keen to employ young people (usually on a no-fixed contract basis) www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/9181388/Over-25s-could-sue-companies-given-taxpayer-cash-for-employing-the-young.html

Labour's change of heart:

"In government we were not sufficiently alive to the burdens, so when people said they were concerned that their wages were being driven down by people from eastern Europe our response too often was to argue that these people are saying 'stop the world, I want to get off', or at worst 'this is prejudice'. I think we were too starry-eyed about globalisation's benefits.

"We have to confront the fact you cannot address people's concerns about immigration unless you change the way the economy works.

"It is the short-term, fast-buck culture that is at the root of this, so we have to look at what incentives we can give companies so they do not rely on a pool of short-term temporary labour that will come to this country and go away again."

www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/21/change-rules-migrant-workers-miliband

I think it's fair to say that without UKIP, none of this would have been debated in the public arena as much as it has.

There's a debate going on in America at the moment (who have the same problems as us) and it was something to do with employers not having to pay tax by hiring 'aliens' in some way that made them not liable for taxation - I didn't really understand that bit; I haven't put the link as it's quite lengthy and not sure you would be that interested in across the pond problems as well!

JessM - it has been on the news a fair bit and was also mentioned a couple of times on Question Time. I will have a look for links though but my search abilities are a bit on the poor side.

I'm not sure if it is still happening, but several years ago a friend's DIL's job entailed going to Eastern Europe to actively recruit workers to come to the UK. When I asked who she worked for, thinking the answer would be one of the supermarket firms, I was told that no, she had a high-powered job in the Civil Service.

Locally, the supermarket warehouses 'let go' the local workers and replaced them with Eastern European workers through agencies, who also provided rented accommodation for them and bussed them into work.
It was a very dire time for local people.

This all happened under the previous government.

No wonder that there is a legacy of resentment in some areas.

JessM there are a couple of warehouses near here who have recruited in Poland. All the employees are Polish, signs are in that language and so on. These are not jobs unwanted by our own citizens. Casual staff is also taken on by these firms through Agencies on an 'as and when' basis and most of these employees are local (my GS among them).

Anecdotal evidence, yes, but then so is a lot of the stuff posted on here.

Incidentally, if I was living on benefits I would not come off them to do seasonal work like picking peas.

I suppose you can guess why!

Once the TTIP comes in, it will not matter whether we are in Europe or not. This government is determined to make us the next state of the US.

hollydaze you are implying that there is a deliberate policy of recruiting from abroad without offering any evidence. You also implied that the government are offering financial incentives, also without evidence. The only examples I can think of where jobs are advertised abroad is NHS and seasonal agriculture.
Skill shortages are a reality in the UK economy.
Also shortages of people willing to do jobs that UK people will not (picking peas, wiping bottoms etc).
I was talking about Farage's speech to his party conference, much publicised.
I note that he said he felt uncomfortable on the train. I wonder how uncomfortable he would have felt if the train had not been running because the majority of the staff had all gone to visit their grandparents in various parts of the globe. Or how uncomfortable he would feel in hospital if half the staff did not turn up there.

Oh, I don't think absent was joking, Aka. As she's so fond of telling us, she has no sense of humour.

Amazing logic Absent!

There was me thinking it was you suggesting GNetters are 'pathetic' and wouldn't say 'boo to a goose', when all the time it was me saying that. Only one problem I can only find those phrases in your posts (TWICE) and not in even one of mine.

Have I had a post deleted? No

Perhaps a senior moment?

Oh I know you were 'only joking' ?? You have so much respect for other GNetters ... except myself and Ana or you wouldn't put words in our mouths that we didn't post (though you did)

The question of "in or out" is not an easy one for non-economists to come to a conclusion about. It is tempting to buy into the rhetoric that says we are losing our sovereignty etc. but the critical factor, as others have said, is the economic effect of our membership (or otherwise). I find it very difficult to obtain objective evidence about this, as everywhere you turn there are people and organisations with an axe to grind and they interpret the stats in the way that best suits their argument.

Where an we get objective facts on which to base our opinions/decisions?

It is a similar situation with the Scotland independence debate. There is a gut nationalistic feeling that will sway many to vote yes, but the economic arguments are what matter and getting to the truth is very hard.

Joelsnan

We need a policy like Australia where immigration in generally skill dependant.

Both industry and the NHS are undermining society by driving down wages and displacing low skilled locals

I also agree wholeheartedly with those comments.

I tried to gain employment a couple of years ago and, due to health restrictions, many jobs I would have applied for were no longer feasible so I applied for jobs in the lower skill area; I didn't even get an interview. When I asked for the reasons for that, I was told I didn't have any people skills (?) or the other one they use, most of my working life has been in administration. Before the low skilled areas became in such recent high demand, those of us who fall short of maintaining our previous levels now have nowhere to go for work. Now we find that we are to blame for all of the country's ills and misfortune as well! Hmm, I can feel a thread coming on ......

Whenever there is a discussion about excess immigration, it always seems to polarise to the NHS and the number of foreign nurses etc. that we require.
If we had not had the large influx of immigrants, we would not need the extra nursing staff as there would be fewer people to treat.
The birth rate amongst immigrant population us higher than the established population, so more midwives needed.

We need a policy like Australia where immigration in generally skill dependant.

Both industry and the NHS are undermining society by driving down wages and displacing low skilled locals, avoiding training costs and/or employing highly skilled staff on lower salaries than UK trained staff have come to expect.

granjura

I would truly and honestly be interested in an open debate based on facts

I absolutely agree. This is what is needed instead of scare stories or made up 'facts' from both sides.

My gut instinct is to get out of Europe - we import more than we export to them and I still don't know why we pay £millions to belong to Europe, what does the money go on? What does the UK get for it?

I would prefer to forge ties again with the Commonwealth and I also feel it was a big mistake for our politicians to turn their backs on them.

Britain managed the whole import/export business just fine before Europe and I have no doubt they will do so again (at least the UK wouldn't have ended up making thousands of wheelie bins for Germany that Germany then decided didn't fit the bill and guess who ended up footing that bill!).

JessM

The NHS only advertise for foreign nurses when they are desperate. Not enough british people want to go into nursing these days. My local hospital was desperate for midwives as they had a very high demand (youngest city in the UK) and the only solution was to import a clutch of Italian midwives.

It isn't just about nursing jobs - it's a lot of jobs are advertised abroad (and not just in Europe). Maybe the social security reforms will change people's minds about training for a career.

I am convinced that the UK Government is forcing wages down by bringing in employees who will expect much less. Sadly, this displaces the local, existing workforce. I would agree it will force prices down but not when the government keeps, for example, house prices propped up which ends up with people working full time but can't afford to buy and struggle to pay the rent. The government can't have it both ways.

I was sitting on a train heading into the south london suburbs recently and thinking about Farage's nasty speech about not hearing English spoken. There was a mix of people on that train, and many of them were not white but many of these looked to me like born and brought up Londoners to me. Few people talk at all on London area public transport. And who are these English people who "speak on public transport" . Pretty darn rare birds I'd say. Made me think that the picture he was trying to summon into peoples minds (although of course it would be illegal to say it out loud) was "I was the only white person in the carriage!!!!"

I can't really comment on that as I didn't hear him say it and if there is a context missing but it would, from what I have read and seen on tv, echo the sentiments of many who live in the UK. Did the comments begin with Farage or did they begin with others and he is echoing them? Given the huge swing towards UKIP, I suspect the latter.

Some information on the economic benefits to the UK, of EU membership.

www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=15296

I rather think that instead of looking at UKIPs anti foreigner rhetoric we should consider the benefits to the UK economy which is far more important to our national well being.

If we left the EU would all those ex-pats living in Spain because Britain "is full of foreigners these days" get sent back home?

https://fullfact.org/live/2014/mar/europe_issues_affecting_britain-30338

One debate in two links from the same website.
Discuss.

https://fullfact.org/live/2014/mar/europe_importance_polls_yougov-30400

Yes indeed, granjura, I totally agree with you.

Ana- I would truly and honestly be interested in an open debate based on facts- and agree, it is a shame people too often shoot from the hip without trying to see and understand other points of view and counter, calmly and without derision, with facts and solid information- rather than prejudice.