I'm tempted by Nigel Farage !

Why not? There are good and bad arguments for in, and out.

Of course there are. I just don't think anyone would want to put their head above the parapet when the ammunition is obviously already there and waiting!

I'm a little tired of all these hypothetical pathetic grannies who don't have the courage of their own convictions and won't say boo to a goose, although apparently there are loads of them.

Maybe they just do not exist, Absent. We must all want to stay in Europe.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to opt out of Europe, but there's plenty wrong with the spurious arguments put forward by UKIP.

Absent that's really going to encourage people to speak out

Yeah, go absent and durhamjen!

(By which I mean, of course, that you're both killing any sort of debate before it's begun, in case I get accused of criticism again )

I wish everyone who wants us out of Europe would provide us with a full account of the potential financial implications on the UK economy of such a move.

Sorry, I do not understand, Ana. Can you explain your last comment a bit more clearly. Do you want us out of Europe or not?

Aka Why do they have to be encouraged unless, of course, they are genuinely rather than ironically pathetic and won't say boo to a goose? What a low opinion you and Ana seem have of so many Gransnet members. I have much more respect for them.

Stopped worrying about ukip when I read they were buying policies from 'think tanks'. Wonder if they have a full set yet!

I'm sorry, laidback, I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say they are buying policies from "Think Tanks". If you mean paying for surveys to be done, or paying consultants to find out what the public are wanting, then I would imagine all the political parties do that. If they don't, then it may account for the fact that they are so out of touch with the general public. Unless, of course, they just listen to the Trade Unions, or to those with big business power

As for the recruiting of staff overseas, three of my family work for the NHS. They are all highly qualified in their field and on top of a three year pay freeze have all been given the option of downgrading - taking large pay cuts, or working 12 hour shifts and being on call at weekends. At the same time there are adverts in Romania for nurses with 'at least six months experience' for a good salary as well as relocation expenses and housing benefits when they arrive.

The moral of the staff is at an all time low to say the least and the prospect of opting out of the EU is very tempting for them.

I don't understand what this means HollyDaze:
If Farage can put a stop to jobs being advertised (and filled) abroad with the UK government giving financial incentives for companies to do exactly that, before they are advertised in the UK, I'd be all for him getting in
Government giving incentives for companies to recruit from abroad???

The NHS only advertise for foreign nurses when they are desperate. Not enough british people want to go into nursing these days. My local hospital was desperate for midwives as they had a very high demand (youngest city in the UK) and the only solution was to import a clutch of Italian midwives.
I was sitting on a train heading into the south london suburbs recently and thinking about Farage's nasty speech about not hearing English spoken. There was a mix of people on that train, and many of them were not white but many of these looked to me like born and brought up Londoners to me. Few people talk at all on London area public transport. And who are these English people who "speak on public transport" . Pretty darn rare birds I'd say. Made me think that the picture he was trying to summon into peoples minds (although of course it would be illegal to say it out loud) was "I was the only white person in the carriage!!!!"

It is no surprise that there are few British nurses coming up when they treat there existing highly qualified staff so badly. They are actually forcing these nurses to leave by demanding unreasonable conditions on them. would you, or your husband expect to take a pay cut ( £7000 per year in one instance) to do the same job, but at a lower grade, or keep the same pay by working 12 hour shifts and be on call at weekends?

i shall be voting ukip in may. whether i would vote for then in the general election i havn't decided yet. i think brussels have too much say in how we run our own country. i have no objection to skilled workers coming to fill jobs here if they can't be filled by british citizens. i think the human rights act is being abused, if we want to get rid of foreign criminals etc we shouid be abie to decide not brussels. we are not in control of our own country now. the last person i would want in power is ed milliband and i wouldn'd trust ed balls with my weekly shop! i believe the conservatives are trying to sort the mess left by labour but some of their policies i don't agree with ie overseas aid and gay marriage. i am all in favour of live and let live and i am not racist.

Ana- I would truly and honestly be interested in an open debate based on facts- and agree, it is a shame people too often shoot from the hip without trying to see and understand other points of view and counter, calmly and without derision, with facts and solid information- rather than prejudice.

Yes indeed, granjura, I totally agree with you.

https://fullfact.org/live/2014/mar/europe_importance_polls_yougov-30400

https://fullfact.org/live/2014/mar/europe_issues_affecting_britain-30338

One debate in two links from the same website.
Discuss.

Some information on the economic benefits to the UK, of EU membership.

www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=15296

I rather think that instead of looking at UKIPs anti foreigner rhetoric we should consider the benefits to the UK economy which is far more important to our national well being.

If we left the EU would all those ex-pats living in Spain because Britain "is full of foreigners these days" get sent back home?

JessM

The NHS only advertise for foreign nurses when they are desperate. Not enough british people want to go into nursing these days. My local hospital was desperate for midwives as they had a very high demand (youngest city in the UK) and the only solution was to import a clutch of Italian midwives.

It isn't just about nursing jobs - it's a lot of jobs are advertised abroad (and not just in Europe). Maybe the social security reforms will change people's minds about training for a career.

I am convinced that the UK Government is forcing wages down by bringing in employees who will expect much less. Sadly, this displaces the local, existing workforce. I would agree it will force prices down but not when the government keeps, for example, house prices propped up which ends up with people working full time but can't afford to buy and struggle to pay the rent. The government can't have it both ways.

I was sitting on a train heading into the south london suburbs recently and thinking about Farage's nasty speech about not hearing English spoken. There was a mix of people on that train, and many of them were not white but many of these looked to me like born and brought up Londoners to me. Few people talk at all on London area public transport. And who are these English people who "speak on public transport" . Pretty darn rare birds I'd say. Made me think that the picture he was trying to summon into peoples minds (although of course it would be illegal to say it out loud) was "I was the only white person in the carriage!!!!"

I can't really comment on that as I didn't hear him say it and if there is a context missing but it would, from what I have read and seen on tv, echo the sentiments of many who live in the UK. Did the comments begin with Farage or did they begin with others and he is echoing them? Given the huge swing towards UKIP, I suspect the latter.

granjura

I would truly and honestly be interested in an open debate based on facts

I absolutely agree. This is what is needed instead of scare stories or made up 'facts' from both sides.

My gut instinct is to get out of Europe - we import more than we export to them and I still don't know why we pay £millions to belong to Europe, what does the money go on? What does the UK get for it?

I would prefer to forge ties again with the Commonwealth and I also feel it was a big mistake for our politicians to turn their backs on them.

Britain managed the whole import/export business just fine before Europe and I have no doubt they will do so again (at least the UK wouldn't have ended up making thousands of wheelie bins for Germany that Germany then decided didn't fit the bill and guess who ended up footing that bill!).

Whenever there is a discussion about excess immigration, it always seems to polarise to the NHS and the number of foreign nurses etc. that we require.
If we had not had the large influx of immigrants, we would not need the extra nursing staff as there would be fewer people to treat.
The birth rate amongst immigrant population us higher than the established population, so more midwives needed.

We need a policy like Australia where immigration in generally skill dependant.

Both industry and the NHS are undermining society by driving down wages and displacing low skilled locals, avoiding training costs and/or employing highly skilled staff on lower salaries than UK trained staff have come to expect.

Joelsnan

We need a policy like Australia where immigration in generally skill dependant.

Both industry and the NHS are undermining society by driving down wages and displacing low skilled locals

I also agree wholeheartedly with those comments.

I tried to gain employment a couple of years ago and, due to health restrictions, many jobs I would have applied for were no longer feasible so I applied for jobs in the lower skill area; I didn't even get an interview. When I asked for the reasons for that, I was told I didn't have any people skills (?) or the other one they use, most of my working life has been in administration. Before the low skilled areas became in such recent high demand, those of us who fall short of maintaining our previous levels now have nowhere to go for work. Now we find that we are to blame for all of the country's ills and misfortune as well! Hmm, I can feel a thread coming on ......