I'm tempted by Nigel Farage !

The question of "in or out" is not an easy one for non-economists to come to a conclusion about. It is tempting to buy into the rhetoric that says we are losing our sovereignty etc. but the critical factor, as others have said, is the economic effect of our membership (or otherwise). I find it very difficult to obtain objective evidence about this, as everywhere you turn there are people and organisations with an axe to grind and they interpret the stats in the way that best suits their argument.

Where an we get objective facts on which to base our opinions/decisions?

It is a similar situation with the Scotland independence debate. There is a gut nationalistic feeling that will sway many to vote yes, but the economic arguments are what matter and getting to the truth is very hard.

Amazing logic Absent!

There was me thinking it was you suggesting GNetters are 'pathetic' and wouldn't say 'boo to a goose', when all the time it was me saying that. Only one problem I can only find those phrases in your posts (TWICE) and not in even one of mine.

Have I had a post deleted? No

Perhaps a senior moment?

Oh I know you were 'only joking' ?? You have so much respect for other GNetters ... except myself and Ana or you wouldn't put words in our mouths that we didn't post (though you did)

Oh, I don't think absent was joking, Aka. As she's so fond of telling us, she has no sense of humour.

hollydaze you are implying that there is a deliberate policy of recruiting from abroad without offering any evidence. You also implied that the government are offering financial incentives, also without evidence. The only examples I can think of where jobs are advertised abroad is NHS and seasonal agriculture.
Skill shortages are a reality in the UK economy.
Also shortages of people willing to do jobs that UK people will not (picking peas, wiping bottoms etc).
I was talking about Farage's speech to his party conference, much publicised.
I note that he said he felt uncomfortable on the train. I wonder how uncomfortable he would have felt if the train had not been running because the majority of the staff had all gone to visit their grandparents in various parts of the globe. Or how uncomfortable he would feel in hospital if half the staff did not turn up there.

Once the TTIP comes in, it will not matter whether we are in Europe or not. This government is determined to make us the next state of the US.

JessM there are a couple of warehouses near here who have recruited in Poland. All the employees are Polish, signs are in that language and so on. These are not jobs unwanted by our own citizens. Casual staff is also taken on by these firms through Agencies on an 'as and when' basis and most of these employees are local (my GS among them).

Anecdotal evidence, yes, but then so is a lot of the stuff posted on here.

Incidentally, if I was living on benefits I would not come off them to do seasonal work like picking peas.

I suppose you can guess why!

I'm not sure if it is still happening, but several years ago a friend's DIL's job entailed going to Eastern Europe to actively recruit workers to come to the UK. When I asked who she worked for, thinking the answer would be one of the supermarket firms, I was told that no, she had a high-powered job in the Civil Service.

Locally, the supermarket warehouses 'let go' the local workers and replaced them with Eastern European workers through agencies, who also provided rented accommodation for them and bussed them into work.
It was a very dire time for local people.

This all happened under the previous government.

No wonder that there is a legacy of resentment in some areas.

JessM - it has been on the news a fair bit and was also mentioned a couple of times on Question Time. I will have a look for links though but my search abilities are a bit on the poor side.

From the select committee in Parliament: www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldselect/ldeconaf/82/8207.htm

This highlights what could be presenting some of the major problems Britain faces with job shortages www.ukimmigrationbarristers.com/blog/the-bribe-of-brussels-uk-companies-offered-1000-in-cash-by-brussels-to-employ-foreign-workers/

This could be why companies are very keen to employ young people (usually on a no-fixed contract basis) www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/jobs/9181388/Over-25s-could-sue-companies-given-taxpayer-cash-for-employing-the-young.html

Labour's change of heart:

"In government we were not sufficiently alive to the burdens, so when people said they were concerned that their wages were being driven down by people from eastern Europe our response too often was to argue that these people are saying 'stop the world, I want to get off', or at worst 'this is prejudice'. I think we were too starry-eyed about globalisation's benefits.

"We have to confront the fact you cannot address people's concerns about immigration unless you change the way the economy works.

"It is the short-term, fast-buck culture that is at the root of this, so we have to look at what incentives we can give companies so they do not rely on a pool of short-term temporary labour that will come to this country and go away again."

www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jun/21/change-rules-migrant-workers-miliband

I think it's fair to say that without UKIP, none of this would have been debated in the public arena as much as it has.

There's a debate going on in America at the moment (who have the same problems as us) and it was something to do with employers not having to pay tax by hiring 'aliens' in some way that made them not liable for taxation - I didn't really understand that bit; I haven't put the link as it's quite lengthy and not sure you would be that interested in across the pond problems as well!

Quite diverse links... The first one highlights why the doors were opened wide to EU immigrants - the economy was booming and there were real labour shortages. The one about the incentives does highlight that these payments were only available via job centres for hard to fill vacancies. There are still hard to fill vacancies in many sectors and parts of the country despite the economic downturn as we have discussed about (agriculture, nursing). Even in areas like education it can be incredibly difficult finding, for example, secondary maths teachers to work in unappealing schools.
America is built on immigration. I think their problems are with illegal immigration from central America and that those people will be exploited, as are illegal immigrants in many countries.
I think it is a pity that the public image of immigration is so negative, when there are so many positives about it.

If there is a shortage of qualified nurses they should take more care of the ones they already have. Morale of nurses in the NHS is at an all time low, that applies to those from other countries as well of those that were born and gained their qualifications here. All have had to downgrade in order to stay in the jobs they have, taking large pay cuts, or stay on the same job, grade and pay, but work 12 hour shifts and be on call at weekends. They are leaving their jobs in droves.

Experigran I agree that nurses could be managed better. The fact that they consistently have one of the highest rates of sickness absence and staff turnover tells us something about both morale and the quality of management.
I also think there is no effort made at all to encourage british kids to go into nursing. (unlike teaching where huge efforts have been made)
However I also wonder whether your statement that "all have had to downgrade" etc, is a bit sweeping. Every nurse in NHS England, Scotland and Wales????

The higher graded ones that I know have all had the option of staying in the same position with lower grading and pay, or working longer hours for the same grade and pay. They have all had to re-apply for their own jobs, therefore starting a new contract. Those that I know personally are in the South, but I think it is a countrywide policy. They have told me that this is widespread throughout even the lower grades.

frontlinefirst.rcn.org.uk/sites/frontlinefirst/index.php/blog/entry/more-than-just-a-number-reckless-policy-draining-nhs-of-experience/

You might find this interesting.

JessM

I would like to think that the majority of people didn't have a negative image of immigration. The problem arose when Labour let so many new people into Britain in short space of time. When people feel displaced (and many immigrants who have been in Britain for many years have made the same complaints against the large numbers recently) with either finding work, somewhere to live, access to healthcare then complaints about immigration become inevitable. Wasn't there something in the news a while ago that a lot of Polish people went back to Poland as the standard of living in Britain had fallen so much?

I agree with you entirely. I don't think many people, or UKIP for that matter have a problem with immigration as such and are aware that it is necessary for the Country. The problem is with the numbers involved. Open borders within Europe means that we have absolutely no control of these numbers. If this was 'The United States of Europe', which is the ultimate aim, all States would have an equal standard of living and an equal benefits system, Then the movement of labour would be purely on demand of skills and would work both ways. For this to happen our standard of living has to fall, while those of Eastern Europe have to rise. They will meet somewhere in the middle. It may take a while, but I am quite sure it is the ultimate aim. I wonder how 'The United States of Europe' will welcome immigration from non-member countries. We are experiencing the problems faced before America became United. that ended in civil war.

You may well be right Experigran but it won't be happening anytime soon in many EU countries as most of them are rebelling about 'foreigners' taking their homes and jobs. I lived for a while in Spain and they are very blunt about how they feel about 'foreigners' - daubing on walls: English go home. The Italians have complained about immigrants as have the French - it isn't just the British that are concerned about the numbers involved.

It may well end in civil uprisings first, but hopefully not in my lifetime.

That is shocking re the nurses. Sounds like it is a policy being quietly employed on a trust by trust basis. Unfortunately there will be more of the same as there are many billions more cuts from NHS budgets that Osborne has in the pipeline. he is only half way through his austerity measures. I said a couple of years ago the NHS is as good as it has ever been and about to take a nose dive. We will never see it as good again I think.

The rot starts when hospitals are thought of as businesses and business managers are put in charge. Recently one such manager was brought in as 'Matron' at the hospital where my daughter-in-law is a paediatric sister. She developed tonsillitis and had some time off. It recurred a few weeks later, the 'Matron' informed her that she had already taken her allocation of sick time and, if she did not come in her, job would be compromised. She was told that it did not matter what was wrong, she had to be there. She knew that she could not compromise her patients and reported him as he had said that it didn't matter even if it was D&V. We wonder how the Noro virus takes hold. Very few of the managers in the NHS have medical training so I can't see how they can have any idea how to run one efficiently.

I suspect it is all part of phasing out health care on such a large scale - much the same as they're doing with pensions and have done with dental care. I do think it is now prudent for youngsters to make sure they have health insurance whilst it would be a price they can afford (not so for older people where the cost of premiums would rocket).

One of the doctors at our surgery is always off sick; no mention of his job being compromised because of it .

Apologies for digging up this thread again but I thought that if you haven't already read this article about UKIP and Mr Farage, it might help to focus your voting intentions in the Euro-election.

I wouldn't vote for Ukip even if it would cure cancer...

That's a ridiculous thing to say, feetlebaum.