EU - in or out?

'Safer and cheaper flights
Student exchange programmes
Single market with free movement of people, goods, services, capital.
Protection of intellectual property
Peace
The euro
Regional funds
Cheaper and better phone calls
Consumer protection, e.g. safer food regulations
Improved health via public health legislation, and such things as the EHIC
Environmental protection
Equal opportunities
External trade'

I think BA was a pretty safe airline anyway wasn't it? Does increased flying due to cheaper flights cause a problem with the fight against global warming?

Did student exchange take place before the EU?

Single market with free movement - that can be argued as a good thing but other EU countries won't necessarily make it easier for those moving there.

I'm not sure what they mean by 'protection of intellectual property' - Britain has had laws relating to that since around the 1750s (I think Amercia used the British law as a template for its own).

I'm not sold on this whole peace thing either - most of the world has managed to live in peace.

The euro is, to date, an unmitigated disaster that is costing Germany a fortune.

Regional funds - I don't know enough about that.

Cheaper and better phone calls? Haven't they just been 'encouraged' to stop overcharging for phone calls in Europe?

Britain already had consumer protection.

I don't know enough about the health legislation.

Not sure about the environmental protection either (but pretty sure Britain already had it in place).

Equal opportunities - undeniably one aspect of the EU that we can thank them for.

Not sure what the external trade means.

Hopefully, someone can explain!

I wish peace didn't keep cropping up in these debates. Has everyone forgotten Bosnia.
And on the subject of peace/ war etc. let's not forget that the French supplied Argentina with missiles to be used against us. They are the sort of friends you want, aren't they?

I had a look at that book on Amazon Mishap and it's a bit pricey! One for sale was over £1,000 the others less so but still very expensive.

You will have to post an idiot's guide for us as you go along

And Juncker is one of them!

Thanks for the link - I think the list of different main bodies there highlights the complexity. And those are just a few of the bodies within the EU. I am reading about so many and my brain is beginning to hurt - a lot!

One of the big arguments seems to be over embassies , with EU hardliners wanting to scrap individual foreign embassies in favour of EU embassies. It is an example of how some EU members want it to function as a nation state.

I found this which helped me to understand a bit more:

www.lindamcavanmep.org.uk/how-the-eu-works

I was puzzled about how the EU commissioners were chosen and what system is, in effect, increasingly taking over the British form of democracy.

We have in the UK of a Head of State who, in effect has no powers but performs a vital (imo) role and a PM chosen by his party, but also chosen for a Parliamentary seat by his constituents in a democratic vote. In the EU we have an unelected (by the people) body of commissioners making vital decisions affecting all our futures and making decisions on world affairs. We have the chance to vote for an MEP - a nod to democracy- who in effect has very little power, represents far too many people to work effectively on their behalf so is costing us money with traipsing back and forth between Brussels and Strasbourg with little to show for it.

The commissioners are the ones with the power and the Top Dog Commissioner seems to me to have the most power of all.

It does not seem very democratic to me at all. It seems more and more like a farce.

I hooe you can follow my post! If you want to, that is.

And TTIP is a bigger reason to get out. I'd rather be a small independent nation than under the thumb of American conglomerates.

The list is very fine Mishap but a lot really applies to us very indirectly (cheaper phone calls). Some we could have achieved anyway (equal opportunities) and I don't believe the cheaper flights. It's much more convenient for us to take a short flight hop, Norwich to Amsterdam then the world than fight our way around London to Heathrow or Gatwick, but price wise it's very expensive. Perhaps this only applies to business class!

I vote for OUT. What we have now is a far cry from the Common Market we started with - and which Norway seems to have managed to achieve.

Yes, it's caretakers who physically open and close the schools each morning and night. That's nothing to do with schools closing for strike action. The school would actually be 'open' inasmuch as the caretaker has opened the doors and the cleaning staff have been in.

Re teachers striking. No teacher strikes lightly or just for a day off. There are good reasons that lie behind these actions. Not the least protecting conditions of employment which are being abused and eroded by schools converting to academies. Some teachers won't strike not matter what, others feel the have to take a stand, more and more are simply leaving teaching. Is that what we want?

As for other family members having to take time off work to look after their own children that's only what happens if children are I'll, so most people have a system in place and most employers understand to a degree.

Finally it is NOT at the discretion of a HT to allow time out of school, except in exceptional circumstances. It used to be, but that's not the case anymore.

On the subject of the EU (!), Holly's quote ("The EU is not a transparent and accountable body. Because of its size and complexity, discussions can take place and deals can be done that may well have far-reaching effects for all EU citizens, without the knowledge or consent of the people that they are supposed to be representing") is what is exercising mind as I valiantly plough through the above-mentioned book. It really does seem that decisions are taken over which we have virtually no control.

Just for your interest (and to try and be positive), the book lists what the author sees as the advantages/aims of being in the EU (quoted here in the order as written - a slightly odd order in my view):

Safer and cheaper flights
Student exchange programmes
Single market with free movement of people, goods, services, capital.
Protection of intellectual property
Peace
The euro
Regional funds
Cheaper and better phone calls
Consumer protection, e.g. safer food regulations
Improved health via public health legislation, and such things as the EHIC
Environmental protection
Equal opportunities
External trade

The big worry from my point of view is the pull towards a federal state of Europe, which is favoured by many; and all the fundamental arguments between the states over the years seem to stem from basic differences of view about this proposition.

I also get a creepy feeling when the book talks about extending the EU to more countries who wish to join (e.g. Turkey) as I have this vision of a vast monolithic state (a bit like Soviet Russia) and I do not like the feel of that. The idea that all these disparate countries can live in harmony by being part of one over-arching state seems unlikely to me - I think they are more likely to fall out (as families do) as one state, than they are as being good neighbours.

Back to my reading!

Sorry last comment in reply to durhamjen and not HollyDaze who posted the quotation.

How ridiculous it is to say that "it's caretakers who close schools" .

Yes obviously they turn the bloomin' key but the school closes because the teachers don't bother their backsides to turn up and do their job and teach!

Actually, it's the caretakers that close the schools, not the teachers, so I was told

If there aren't any teachers present to carry out teaching duties, there wouldn't be much point in the school being open.

EU is not a transparent and accountable body. Because of its size and complexity, discussions can take place and deals can be done that may well have far-reaching effects for all EU citizens, without the knowledge or consent of the people that they are supposed to be representing

And that, for those of us who do not support the EU, is the one of the overriding reasons for wanting out of the EU.

Sorry - meant to add that it was 82.5% of 27% attendees - even from those who turned up, they didn't get 100% support for the strike.

82.5% of members voted, in a ballot, that they were in favour of walkouts but only 27% of members bothered to turned up.

From what I understand, the NASUWT is the UK's largest teaching union - did they vote to strike as well or is it just the NUT?

Eloethan

our membership of the EU, seeing it as yet another layer of largely unaccountable and undemocratic control.

That was one of Farage's main complaints: that many of the decisions to be taken are not open for all MEPs to vote on - just a few; that makes me wonder why...

gillybob

Having said that I do believe that DC's intentions are not that we leave the EU but that we fight to regain/retain control of our country and not live and work under the thumb of the rest of Europe.

That would probably be the best solution for everyone but I can't see it happening as the 'superstate' is the ultimate goal.

I agree that teachers are not child minders durhamjen they are paid (well) to do a job, which on at least two occasions this year they have not done. I also think there is becoming a blame shifting attitude towards the fines for taking time out of school too. Having had a recent conversation with my DGC's head teacher I was told that time out during term time was "at her discretion" and if she allows the time out there is no fine. If she does not allow the time out then she refers this to the relevant authority, so now I am confused.

The thing that really maddens me is that most parents do not work in the public sector, in massive departments. Most parents work in the private sector and can't just plead " my child's teachers are on strike, therefore I will not be coming in/ working flexi time" or whatever. Many parents will be in fear for their jobs and be docked a days wages.

Sorry for being a bit off topic but I simply had to offer some kind of reply.

ttip2014.eu/blog-detail/blog/TTIP%20US%20lobbying%20law.html

This is about how the EU is trying to block the US from changing our food laws. If it wasn't for the EU here, we could be forced to accept GM maize, etc.

I agree about that, Eloethan, but at least in Europe there is a sizeable body to try and change the TTIP. In the UK, there is only one MP who is against the TTIP, as far as I can tell.

A lot of MPs were elected on a smaller proportion of the vote, though, rose. It wasn't a turn-out. It was a postal vote. They all had their voting slips, and were quite happy to go along with the majority.
Children learn from their parents' actions and words. I remember being told by a kid that he didn't need to learn to add up because he'd take over his dad's business and his dad had told him that he'd earn more than me. He was bigger than me so I didn't argue too much.
Parents who take their children out of school for holidays cannot then complain when the teachers go on strike. Actually, it's the caretakers that close the schools, not the teachers, so I was told. If there are no cleaning or catering staff, all the other ancillary jobs where people are paid minimum wage, and have had enough of that, then the schools cannot open.

durhamjen I agree with most of what you say but the TTIP Agreement is being discussed between the EU and the US - the EU is not a powerless bystander but a participant in these secretive discussions. This suggests to me that the the EU is not a transparent and accountable body. Because of its size and complexity, discussions can take place and deals can be done that may well have far-reaching effects for all EU citizens, without the knowledge or consent of the people that they are supposed to be representing.

It's bad enough having a government that is in hock to huge corporations and financial institutions, without having an even more remote body giving yet more power to them.

Turnout of 27% - worse than the 35% turnout for the EU elections

No teachers are not childminders - they are teachers
Children learn from their actions as well as their words.

Gillybob, it's not the teachers who made up the rules about not taking children out of school. It's Michael Gove. The schools just get the blame.