Ukrainan Crash

You can find flight arrival and departures, flightpaths and altitudes of flights on several websites. I don't believe that the pro russian separatists did not have access to any computers smart phones etc. If they were trying to down troop transport planes, surely they could have found out what traffic was using their airspace. All commercial flights are easilly identified with binoculars. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING.

And of course it's absolutely perfectly normal for bodies to be left out in the open isn't it for 2 days?

In that country it may well be if they're not one of their own.

I am truly truly by these apologists for mass murderers - we are now supposed to buy into cultural differences into the treatment of dead bodies - many of them children- being left in the open? In that case Holly why are decent ordinary locals now moving the bodies whilst the killers loot and pose amongst the debris and the belongings and prevent professional investigators from gaining access?

Who was apologising?

No-one, Holly.

Thank goodness for that rosequartz - I was beginning to think I'd somehow slipped into the twilight zone!

Surely it must be apparent by now that Granny's opinion must not be challenged?

Oh dear, clearly an inability to understand the difference between the words apologist and apologising- <shakes head sadly>.And wow Ana another powerful contribution to a serious thread .

Thanks, Granny!

Apologists can add something powerful if controversial to debate.
Spiteful remarks add nothing.

Just an observation.

I am unfortunately less confident in American technical expertise this week than last. One would think that the centre for disease control in the US (thy do loads of nationally funded research into bacteria and viruses) would be top-notch on their health and safety...
www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2014/p0711-lab-safety.html

A friend made the point yesterday that those in charge of these missiles could be drunk. Good point I thought.

Was reading about this in the paper yesterday. It is truly awful but was particularly upset by the story of 3 siblings killed with their grandfather who was taking them back to school whiLst their parents stayed in Holland for 2 days extra holiday? Now one of the parents has lost their father and they have lost all their children. As someone who has lost one child and experienced the devastation of this ( whichever never goes away) I felt so much for those parents how will they ever live with the consequences of their decision which was a perfectly normal one to make. In the midst of the political comment it is the tragedy of the families which is most poignant. Never mind the research knowledge of all the AIDS experts who were killed. That's a lost to mankind by itself.

Well yes they could have been drunk on drugs, mad, or just plain wicked, and their behaviour since would lead one to believe that they were probably all of those things! It would now appear that bodies have been moved (where?!) evidence obviously removed covered up, and the investigators will only be allowed in as and when the cover over up is completed! It really is a shocking business and perhaps a wakeup call to the West as to exactly what we are dealing with when coping with Russia and her allies; Appealing to their consciences or better natures just doesn't cut any ice at all, I'm afraid they view that as a sign of weakness. Sadly the only language understood is the barrel of a gun and the sooner we understand that then perhaps the sooner we can view things in a more realistic light and be very wary.

It is shocking in the extreme.

But also so so so dangerous- and could lead to terrible consequences.
Putin knows totally that Europe does not have the 'appetite' nor the means to fight him- and are terrified (so rightly) of taking measures that could lead to WW3. I shudder to think of the consequences of this cold war, which is getting warmer by the minute.

It is a terrible dilemma! Of course we can't possibly risk WW3, so the only answer is to pander to, pussyfoot round, put up with endless provocation by putting on a brave face, in the hope that somehow by example, these wild people will suddenly see the error of their ways!!! A forlorn hope I'm afraid.

I don't think that biding our time and truly thinking through the consequences of any actions that the west might take is pussyfooting around. We must avoid knee-jerk reactions and be clear what the aims and likely consequences might be of anything that might be done.

It is a real Catch 22, but the stakes are very high.

Tell that to Putin and watch him laugh at us!!!!

Maybe, just maybe a lot of people are extremely worried about what has happened and it may stop influential governments from arming people in other parts of the world for their own agenda. I'm not defending the Russians in any way but I can't believe that the West don't do the same thing. I very much doubt that people are pussyfooting around; they just don't want another Bay of Pigs scenario.

Putin can laugh all he wishes - that is not what matters.
Making mature and intelligent decisions is what matters. We should not worry about what this man thinks, only what is the right thing to do.

As I understand it, in 1994 Ukraine agreed to give up it's nuclear weapons in return for promise from the U.S and Russia not to use force or military action against the new independent state. Putin clearly repudiated that agreement with the annexing of The Crimea!! and has been doing so by back door methods ever since. That promise was clearly worthless on both fronts, sadly more fool the Ukrainians to believe it, except that a signed agreement would probably have been just as worthless!

Oh dear, some also clearly have the inability to understand the difference between not wanting to prejudge a situation until all the facts are known (as opposed to assumed) - <shakes head sadly>

I don't think there is much to prejudge over the annexing of The Crimea! seems pretty straight forward to me!

I haven't referred to your post nigglynellie

Sorry, thought your were! On Newsnight the other day(?!) when the annexing of The Crimea was brought up and the fact that Ukraine should have held any referendum bearing in mind it is their territory, the Russian chap just shrugged his shoulders, which I think tells us the mindset! As everyone says though, what can you do? just let it go and hope for the best!

It's okay nigglynellie - if people continue not to address me by name, I am happy to do the same to them (even if it does cause confusion).

Putin will do whatever he wants and there's not much that we can do about that. We will just have to hope that the officials who can try and help to sort it out are successful.